[Richard C]

Apologies for the long post. I have been on a bit of a self imposed forum sabbatical between Christmas and New Year. So lots of thoughts on my end...

Originally Posted by bella

f1 teams at the pointy end are far, far too big.

Agree

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

But F1 teams will spend however much they can get in a valiant attempt to be as competitive (or in Mercedes' case, as dominant) possible.

A theme for this post will be that people will spend money if they have it. So teams will grow as large as their funding allows. Success keeps the teams going. So a large monster of a team that is ALSO successful... Well... let them be the poster child for this thread.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

I dont understand why people say this.

So I didn't quote your entire post. As you mention, you are fired up and your comments indicate as much. To be honest, I don't fully understand what your message was. I "think" you are saying that the situation is obscene. It is, but I don't think unique to F1. Look at the tech industry as a whole. I will pick on Apple for a moment. Overpriced product (sorry, to you Apple fans, not trying to pick a fight) while allows for extravagant spending at the corporate level. Spending (UFO HQ anyone?) that is not necessary, but happens because the budget exists to do so.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

F1 teams are fairly barebones operations of hundreds of engineers slogging away on parts for the car (or research on how to make it faster) in a huge open plan space:

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Of course Toro Rosso are one of the smaller teams. Renault, Red Bull and all the rest are similar -- and, in fact, even bigger.

I challenge the "bare-bones" moniker. I suspect that regardless of the industry, if you ask senior management they will claim they are running very efficiently and with as small as staff as they can get by with. I think the reality is the level of funding drives staffing levels in all industries. If you are a highly profitable company, you will grow fat even if you think you are lean. I think a very eye opening experience is to work for a company that is struggling and to see how you can get by on much less. Granted, that is not a recipe for success, but you can see what "bare-bones" really is. Also the disparity in size between teams illustrates that bare-bones does not apply to all. I would say that some of the current teams might be bare-bones in that they are large enough to survive, but that is all they do.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Here is a Toro Rosso factory tour for example

Thanks. That (the corrected link) was an interesting video.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

The problem is that most teams design and machine every single nut and bolt themselves, even the gearbox.

As crazy as it seems today, I think it could even be worse. Imagine if it was economically feasible for someone like Mercedes to be 2x or 10x! bigger than they are today. Details that today are left unexplored would be examined in a team that size. Impossible you say? Roll the clock back decades. Teams were smaller and the solutions were simpler yet the regulations would have allowed complex solutions (as measured by today's standards). Remember that today is the future as defined yesterday. What will tomorrow look like?

I think I have posted on this next point before, but I love the idea of "The Last Man Who Knew Everything". The book (which I need to read) attributes this to be a British scientist from the late 1700's early 1800's named "Thomas Young". The point is that human knowledge continues to advance and that what could be done (or understood) has grown beyond that of a single individual. I think that broadly speaking, this situation has happened to F1 within the lifetime of participants of this forum. So it is confusing to see this happen and to truly understand what HAS happened.

Originally Posted by bella

it shouldn't take seven hundred people to directly produce a f1 car. that's where the fault is. not with some of the midfield and backmarker teams working with a far more realistic and sustainable budget and workforce.

So regardless of my comments above that the teams will just naturally grow due to the complexity. I agree with bella above. The question is... how to fix this?

Originally Posted by chillibowl

I'll keep on watching the sport but I fear this forum has run out of future or interesting points of view

I have a comment on that topic in the "How to Fix F1?" thread. Specifically what the fans think/want.

Richard