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30 Apr 2018, 09:40 (Ref:3818323) | #1 | ||
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Rolling Starts at Street Races
Is it time to introduce rolling starts at races like Baku and Monaco? It's a near certainty that several cars will touch/collide and then the safety car will come out. Then after a few wasted laps the race proper is started with a rolling start, minus a couple of cars, and with a couple more relegated to the back. Why not accept the reality and have a rolling start for all 20 cars in an undamaged condition?
For comparison, look at a race start in the 1960s. There is only a couple of feet of side-to-side space between the cars, only about half a car length between the rows, and yet they all manage to get away without bumping into one another. Agreed, the performance levels then were much lower, but they have about the grip of a Formula Ford and twice the power. They were not easy cars to handle. |
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30 Apr 2018, 10:02 (Ref:3818327) | #2 | |
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What benefit would it give? You'd still have 20+ cars bowling into the first few corners close together, with the added risk of shenanigans approaching the start.
The principal difference would be that they'd get to turn 1 even more quickly. SC restarts aren't really 'rolling starts' as such, because everyone is (or should be) line astern. Rolling starts are more often than not two by two. |
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30 Apr 2018, 10:13 (Ref:3818330) | #3 | |
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Keep the standing starts, being able to make a good standing start and keep out of trouble is supposed to be part of the drivers skill set. F1 has been watered down enough as it is. If anything, Baku shows what happens when the margin and penalty from errors increase. On a Tilke drome, GRO would have spun and re-joined but in Baku there was nowhere to go.
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30 Apr 2018, 10:16 (Ref:3818332) | #4 | ||
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OTOH it would give Grosjean another opportunity to bin the car.
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30 Apr 2018, 11:00 (Ref:3818341) | #5 | ||
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Rolling starts just mean that everyone arrives at turn 1 faster - no drop in number of accidents but takes away a good opportunity for people to make places if they can get the car launched properly.
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30 Apr 2018, 11:23 (Ref:3818346) | #6 | |||
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Rolling starts could be line astern. After all, we've gone from 3-2-3 to 2-2 to staggered. It's just one more step. I'm only putting the idea out there to see what people say. Personally like the idea of more car running properly, but hate the idea of yet more dumbing down. |
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30 Apr 2018, 11:48 (Ref:3818353) | #7 | ||
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Well, not that there’s a direct comparison, the FIA Historic F1 championship utilises rolling starts, AND also no overtaking until a nominated turn on the first lap. All cars to remain line astern until then.
The rolling starts are mainly to reduce possible transmission damage and therefore cost, the ‘no overtaking until turn X’ rule to reduce early corner accidents..... Would I want to see that in modern F1? No. |
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30 Apr 2018, 11:56 (Ref:3818355) | #8 | ||
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Having watched plenty of CART/IndyCar races over the years, I've seen plenty of first lap incidents with a rolling start on street courses, so I don't think they will solve anything.
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30 Apr 2018, 12:22 (Ref:3818365) | #9 | ||
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In a start after the safety car the cars become naturally spread out due the unpredictability of when the lead driver actually make the break and goes for it. In fact this generally has a knock-on effect down the 'grid' and each following car can only react to the car in front. With a rolling start, the race starts when the lead cars cross the start/finish line so they will be generally be bunched up more closely together & still like that when they arrive at the first corner.
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30 Apr 2018, 12:32 (Ref:3818368) | #10 | |||
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I still believe that staggered grids should be scrapped, and go back to a more compact grid formation. That would stop the speed differential between those starting further back and those from the front. It would also mean that drivers should be far more aware of the cars that are around them, and thus overcoming the "I didn't see them" excuse. |
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30 Apr 2018, 12:41 (Ref:3818374) | #11 | ||
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Quote: For comparison, look at a race start in the 1960s. There is only a couple of feet of side-to-side space between the cars, only about half a car length between the rows, and yet they all manage to get away without bumping into one another. Quote.
Difference was, if they did "bump" then, it was nearly always fatal.. |
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30 Apr 2018, 12:43 (Ref:3818377) | #12 | |||
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30 Apr 2018, 15:45 (Ref:3818411) | #13 | |
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Standing starts are always more exciting than rolling starts. Plus it’s easy for drivers not line up correctly under rolling starts
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30 Apr 2018, 16:05 (Ref:3818417) | #14 | ||||
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My opinion is that F1 is either "a" or "the" top level in open wheel racing. Let them figure out how to navigate the first corner without it ending their race. Its part of what makes the actual race results different than just setting quick times in qualifying (and then awarding points based upon time only). Richard |
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30 Apr 2018, 16:23 (Ref:3818420) | #15 | ||
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I find them both equally exciting and I like that there are two types of start. If it was all the same it would be a bit dull. However, I agree about drivers not lining up properly under a rolling start. The start of this year's Long Beach GP, was very scrappy and should have been waved off.
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3 May 2018, 05:01 (Ref:3819008) | #16 | ||
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Well, there's plenty here to go through.
I suspect that the old-style grids were done away with after about 1975 due to the increasing performance, especially acceleration, of the cars. The Ford-Cosworth DFV reached a 485-hp output at about that time, which was a good 10% increase over what they were seeing just 2-3 years before. Under those conditions, the tight, sometimes 3-4-wide, rows you might see became a serious liability if a car stalled, as effective evasion became much harder with the improved acceleration. Particularly with the Anthony Nogues corner, you're going to have about as much luck getting the grid formed up for a rolling start at Monaco as IndyCar does coming off the hairpin at Long Beach. Also, even at more open circuits, unless you have a very long run up to the line, you're going to have issues with forming the grid, because the drivers are going to enter the straight single-file, so that they don't muck up their tires right before the start by going around the outside (off-line) of the final corners. And anyway, which tracks would count as "street circuits"? By a stricter definition, it would probably be limited to Baku, Monaco, and Singapore. Under a looser guideline, you might well include parkland circuits such as Melbourne and Montreal. If you're really being lenient, you could include Sochi and Yas Marina, which fall into the same sort of category as Valencia. And of course, touching on earlier comments, a rolling start means you're heading into Turn 1 at a higher speed. A longer run into Turn 1 can mitigate this to an extent, but it also runs counter to what I just mentioned, that is, having enough space off the final corner for the grid to fully organize. With the most obvious exception being Baku, a number of the F1 circuits have a tendency for the line to be rather closer to the last corner than the first. I don't think standing starts are enough of an increased hazard, assuming they are one, to warrant the change. I consider the unpredictability they bring to more than justify the continued use of the procedure. |
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3 May 2018, 06:10 (Ref:3819014) | #17 | ||
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If I had to list the circuits where I don't think forming up the grid for a rolling start would be a particular concern, it would be as follows:
Bahrain Baku Red Bull Ring Monza Interlagos The tracks where I see grid formation as a definite issue are these: Melbourne Monaco Montreal Paul Ricard Silverstone Hungaroring Spa-Francorchamps Singapore Sochi The others could present problems to varying degrees. With Catalunya and Suzuka, you have to get the field bunched back up and in two-wide formation after going through a tight, slow chicane. At Mexico City and Shanghai, you couldn't have the full field ready until after the last car has exited the final, real corner. Anyway, clearly, all 3 street circuits, 4 of 5 street/parkland circuits, and 5 of the 7 non-permanent (by design at least) circuits are on that second list. Finally, I suspect the tracks where the added speed of a rolling start is apt to cause additional difficulties in the first braking zone are these: Bahrain Baku Monaco Montreal Red Bull Ring Hockenheim Spa-Francorchamps Austin Yas Marina Sorry guys, I'm just in a mood right now to be thorough. |
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3 May 2018, 07:08 (Ref:3819022) | #18 | |||
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Would the list change if the rolling start was made somewhere else on the track? |
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3 May 2018, 07:33 (Ref:3819030) | #19 | ||
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To me, rolling starts are an abomination and a lessening of the skillset required to compete in circuit motor racing. I do understand that there are some situations where they are needed, such as:
Ovals - really no other way to start on them Historic racing - to ease loads on the gear that a standing start generates Pro/Am type races where skillsets vary so much that a standing start feels inappropriate Some Endurance races where the start is a small part of the race and building a car to withstand a standing start compromises it for the other aspects in the race itself. Other than that, best left alone I think. As others have said, rolling starts have all cars bunched, sometimes closer to each other than an F1 Standing start and they arrive at the first corner going faster - most likely a more risky proposition. Lastly, to me standing starts are very much part of F1 and it would need a very, very strong argument to go away from them, which we currently do not have. |
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3 May 2018, 08:42 (Ref:3819045) | #20 | |
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And sportscars need it, as there are too many cars for a standing start
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3 May 2018, 09:07 (Ref:3819050) | #21 | ||
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3 May 2018, 12:21 (Ref:3819083) | #22 | ||
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Too many cars - really? How many are they starting in the sportscar races you're talking about? Used to start 55 touring cars at Bathurst with a standing start OK. I know the 'Ring 24 hours is an enormous field and there are a couple of others of that ilk (covered in my comments about endurance and pro-am fields) but I'm not sure that all sports car races have such big fields.
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3 May 2018, 12:43 (Ref:3819088) | #23 | ||
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The Spa 24 Hours will have c.60 cars, Sebring has c.50 most years, Petit Le Mans usually has upwards of 40 cars. If we look at Super GT, the GT500s struggle to get away from pit stops without massive wheelspin. Plus Super GT does split starts to reduce the chance of carnage at the first corner due to cold tyres (no tyre warmers). So standing starts aren't really an option. |
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3 May 2018, 13:02 (Ref:3819096) | #24 | ||
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Standing starts used to be exciting, now all the cars get away more or less the same due to all the "start maps" and trick diffs. When was the last time you saw a car totally fluff a start and lose 5-6 places into turn 1?
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3 May 2018, 13:07 (Ref:3819098) | #25 | ||
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I find the starts of F1 races to be the most intriguing and exciting aspects of the entire race. Please don't change them.
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