Stoner - has he delivered?

HDTVKSS · 26 Jul 2006, 02:10 (Ref:1664613)

not according to the man himself.

http://www.crash.net/news_View~t~Sto...~id~134410.htm

personly i think hes being hard on himself. this is a good thing and a bad thing. not many ppl on satelite bikes in their rookie year get results like he has, including a well earned 2nd. Laguna, he was unlucky, the race before was a medical screw up. with an attitude like that its a good sign that he will drive ( or ride) himself into some grat results in the future.

discuss!

Hazza · 26 Jul 2006, 03:08 (Ref:1664630)

He has out performed Elias and Tamada, and he has run up the front fairly regularly. In time victories will come. His only issue is that he seems a biiiit to aggressive at times, and that can cost him. We don't want annother Garry McCoy - 'Fast when fit'.

He seems to think he has under performed, and that is just his usual harsh self criticisim. I just can't wait for the Stoner/Pedrosa/Rossi battles of years to come.

Schummy · 26 Jul 2006, 06:51 (Ref:1664682)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hazza

I just can't wait for the Stoner/Pedrosa/Rossi battles of years to come.

Don't forget De Puniet

McCoy was a joy to watch!

I don't bother about "points", he was an "artist", a heroe

. I would change 90% of MotoGP riders for McCoys

(I hope Dorna is not looking over this).

I agree about Stoner has done a good job. The important thing is his pace, he has showed that he has got it. Ok, he is a bit crashy, but it possibly can be smoothed as time pass. Elias, for example is a MotoGP failure at the moment, he was brighter than Casey in lower categories, though.

Bleu · 26 Jul 2006, 08:21 (Ref:1664749)

Stoner has had lots of crashes in smaller classes as well. He's very fast but so unreliable. Last season was better, I think he had two crashes only (Jerez and PI)

nihil · 26 Jul 2006, 08:48 (Ref:1664766)

He's obviously feeling the pressure, but letting everyone know that isn't going to help him any! For my money, before he binned it at Laguna Seca, he was the best thing to watch on the track. The pass on Roberts was a mix of cajones and class. He needs to switch off the fear mechanisms off the the track, as easily as he can on the track.

Hazza · 26 Jul 2006, 11:29 (Ref:1664914)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bleu

Stoner has had lots of crashes in smaller classes as well. He's very fast but so unreliable. Last season was better, I think he had two crashes only (Jerez and PI)

Alas, championship loosing crashes. They were probably a 3rd place and a win respectively...

HDTVKSS · 26 Jul 2006, 12:13 (Ref:1664951)

he will come good. Hes not got the testing that the other guys have either. I hope he gets it togeather cause he sure is awesome to watch on track. Stoner and Vermulen fighting it out for GP wins each race would be grouse!

Slippy Diff · 26 Jul 2006, 21:23 (Ref:1665363)

At MotoGP level of racing a rider simply can't keep crashing and expect his team to keep ignoring it. There are riders queueing up n the lower orders for MotoGP race seats. Being fast and a 'bit crashy' simply don't cut it. Maybe he's been taking lessons from Xaus. Stoner needs to buck his ideas up or it'll be a short career in MotoGP.

jhansen · 26 Jul 2006, 23:32 (Ref:1665448)

I don't have much of a reference point, as this is on my second season of following the sport. So I'm not sure where a rookie is expected to finish. Especially a rookie in a one-bike team. He certainly is quick with natural speed. Surely that is a positive. Goodness, he's had four DNFs and is still 6th in points. However, crashing with some sort of regularity cannot be good.

In terms of his results, I'd say he's done well. But he'll need to come good in the consistency department now. If he bags a win and maintains his place in the championship, surely that would be a good start. But what do I know...

mac · 26 Jul 2006, 23:38 (Ref:1665451)

I think a lot of it can be blamed on the fact that he is faster tha his bike.

He has an incredible ability to hustle that bike past its limits - he has to in order to stay with the frontrunners. He can run at Hayden's and Pedrosa's pace, but he has to risk it all on every corner to do it.

I think he is just over-riding a bit to compensate for the bike's downfalls in comparison to the opposition. For him to be up front as often as he is in a one-bike satellite team is amazing.

I guarantee that if he was on a Repsol machine, he would be binning it less.

HDTVKSS · 27 Jul 2006, 00:10 (Ref:1665471)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac

I think a lot of it can be blamed on the fact that he is faster tha his bike.

I guarantee that if he was on a Repsol machine, he would be binning it less.

for sure. Infact i think if he was on a top machine, you wouldnt see which way he went!

Was a rumor in motorsport news that Duc and Yamaha were trying to get him for next year but i cant see that happening with his 3 year honda contract.

I would love to see him work with Burgess and having Rossi mentor him wouldnt hurt either.

Slippy Diff · 27 Jul 2006, 00:20 (Ref:1665484)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac

I think a lot of it can be blamed on the fact that he is faster tha his bike.

He has an incredible ability to hustle that bike past its limits - he has to in order to stay with the frontrunners. He can run at Hayden's and Pedrosa's pace, but he has to risk it all on every corner to do it.

I think he is just over-riding a bit to compensate for the bike's downfalls in comparison to the opposition. For him to be up front as often as he is in a one-bike satellite team is amazing.

I guarantee that if he was on a Repsol machine, he would be binning it less.

A good manager/mentor/team manager would be telling him to go for good solid finishes ather than over-riding his bike. He doesn't have to stay with the front runners, he has to finish solidly at every race and get the points, 'cos what do points make?

Schummy · 27 Jul 2006, 00:25 (Ref:1665485)

I think this thread is revolving around the classic debate between those who prefer to watch good races and those who prefer see the championship as a whole picture.

In car GP racing the old classic view was race was the important thing. The "modern" view is more about the F1 championship. I share the classic view.

If you consider the whole championship, crashing is a big sin. If you like to watch "races" being fast is THE thing, crashing is "secundary"

I understand both views, it's just some people prefer one and others prefer the other side.

Stoner has four DNFs, but he has four 4-top positions, not bad for a rookie. BTW, Capirossi also got four 4-tops. And "rookie Edwards"

just one 4-top posotions. Please, compares Colin and Casey results and make your choice. CE is a nice guy and he has a (deserved by his former brilliant WSBK career) big name in bikes, so...

I suppose teams are prone to the championship picture because of personal preferences or perhaps commercial pressure. But certainly at the end of the day, teams like marketable riders/drivers. I suppose Mamola and Gilles Villeneuve were good commercial prospects even if they were not hugely successfull in terms of statistics .

Checa developed a crashy trend for years yet for some reason he apparently is marketable in Spain (where there are many GP sponsors) and he has got regularly better bikes than riders with similar stats (Checa was a pretty good rider, but he declined as time passed). His list of teams along his career is pretty impressive.

I agree that if next season Casey goes on crashing he can be in trouble. However I just regret it

(Ok, I have done my job of posting 100 lines in a week in this low traffic forum. marcus: I wait the promised check. It has been hard to pretend I was doing an argument

)

HDTVKSS · 27 Jul 2006, 00:26 (Ref:1665486)

and if he did that , all we would hear about is how much Pedrosa is better, hasnt lived up to hype, had speed in 250 but not in GP, blah blah. id rather see him up front having a red hot go and bin it a few times than play it safe and fade away into mediocrity.

jhansen · 27 Jul 2006, 07:05 (Ref:1665624)

I don't think that I can buy the "he's on an inferior machine" excuse. He's on a Honda, and it's a capable bike. I will say that he does not have the benefit of a teammate, which certainly doesn't help.

DavidStHubbins · 27 Jul 2006, 07:19 (Ref:1665633)

Yeah, the satellite Honda excuse doesn't cut ice I'm afraid. He's on a proven product while Hayden is developing a new bike all season. Having said that he has delivered I think.

As people have already pointed out, the fact that he is hard on himself is good as crashing every few races is not cool! It's been an aspect of his career for as long as I've been watching him (since he was 16) but he has a few years yet to iron it out. The speed is there without doubt and I think the Laguna crash had everything to do with the fact that his rival Pedrosa was quicker than him and about to pass him. He showed he'd rather crash than let that happen! Which is good to watch (as long as he doesn't hurt himself) and makes for interesting viewing. I always got excited when Rossi came up behind Biaggi (on the track mind..) because I knew that there was a 50% chance Biaggi would bin it losing the front. That's what racing is all about and maybe that will be Stoner's position in MotoGP - the choker! I love a bit of conflict and suspense in my racing.

It's up to him to sort it out and I hope he does because he has really shown his class in adapting so fast. I'm shocked to be honest and, realistically, I think that with a bit more experience he'll be fine. Rossi binned it just as much in his first season of 500cc but in the second half of the season he was THE form man. So there's hope yet.

bestfit · 27 Jul 2006, 09:01 (Ref:1665723)

Quote:

I think a lot of it can be blamed on the fact that he is faster than his bike.

This has been exactly my opinion of Stoner since he first came to the GP's in 2002.

I think Casey is an enormous talent and his results this year have been nothing short of spectacular. Yes he has had 3 DNF's (Pedrosa has 2) and 1 DNS due to an over zealous doctor at Sachsenring, but in the other 7 rounds he has had 1 x 2nd, 3 x 4th, 2 x 5th and 1 x 6th. There are many riders who have not achieved these sort of results in their entire GP career, let alone in the first 2/3 of their rookie year!

I think the next few years in MotoGP have the potential to be some of the best for many years.

Rainey, Doohan, Scwantz, Gardner ...

hmmmm

Rossi, Pedrosa, Stoner, Hayden, Melandri (Lorenzo, Dovisioso??)

Bring it on!!

BootsOntheSide · 27 Jul 2006, 09:19 (Ref:1665735)

Has anyone in his team been involved in MotoGP before? They're a 250 squad moving up, and Casey really needs some more experienced people around him telling him when to cool it. You don't try to win every race in your rookie year. If his Honda is equal or superior to the Repsol machine, how do you explain Hayden and Pedrosa being so far ahead of all bar Melandri in the championship.

L34 · 27 Jul 2006, 09:29 (Ref:1665748)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

Has anyone in his team been involved in MotoGP before? They're a 250 squad moving up, and Casey really needs some more experienced people around him telling him when to cool it. You don't try to win every race in your rookie year. If his Honda is equal or superior to the Repsol machine, how do you explain Hayden and Pedrosa being so far ahead of all bar Melandri in the championship.

Yes, from what I understand, certain team members from Pons moved across to LCR when Pons pulled out for this season.

Maybe the off's Casey is having is due to him having to ride at 110% in a new, single bike, satellite Honda team.

It would be interesting to see Casey on the Repsol Honda along with Pedrosa, and gauge how good he really is.

Honestly do the satellite get all the same bits and pieces as the No1 team?

I doubt it.

I think his efforts have been outstanding to date if we compare to the other single bike Honda satellite team, who have been running around for a few years.

DavidStHubbins · 27 Jul 2006, 10:22 (Ref:1665791)

I think there is no doubting the speed of Casey's bike, particularly his straight line speed. Stoner is usually the one with the highest speed at the end of the straights. Honda are pretty good at giving out top equipment.

jhansen · 27 Jul 2006, 15:49 (Ref:1666002)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

Has anyone in his team been involved in MotoGP before? They're a 250 squad moving up, and Casey really needs some more experienced people around him telling him when to cool it. You don't try to win every race in your rookie year. If his Honda is equal or superior to the Repsol machine, how do you explain Hayden and Pedrosa being so far ahead of all bar Melandri in the championship.

I think you just answered your own question. The factory team is naturally quite experienced, has two bikes, and has two very good riders. Not to mention, they may even get a bit of preference from Michelin. IMO, you'd see a different Stoner if he was riding along side Melandri for instance. The pace he displays on the bike shows that the bike is up to snuff.

As for him being "faster than his bike," that's an interesting bit of logic. All of those riders can out-ride their bikes. That's just a simple matter of taking it past the limits. Stoner just needs to get more consistent at riding at the edge of the limit for a GP distance. Or indeed, learn to pace himself a bit when it is appropriate to do so.

Dani Filth · 27 Jul 2006, 16:39 (Ref:1666029)

Stoner needs to learn to use his head (aka consistency and all) while riding too .. not only his "balls"(aka speed) .. something like use "your head with your balls"

many drivers have brains .. or "balls" .. but the perfect combination only Rossi has

Knowlesy · 27 Jul 2006, 20:58 (Ref:1666196)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dani Filth

Stoner needs to learn to use his head (aka consistency and all) while riding too .. not only his "balls"(aka speed) .. something like use "your head with your balls"

This is a family forum Dani.

Schummy · 27 Jul 2006, 21:44 (Ref:1666245)

Balls are spheres, are not they?

Dani Filth · 27 Jul 2006, 22:02 (Ref:1666262)

how would knowle know that .. it's math

X^2 + Y^2 +Z^2 = R^2 .. centered in (0,0,0) of course ..
that's what I remember about spheres

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