Which other?.....

KayBee · 3 Apr 2003, 17:36 (Ref:557471)

At the last two meetings I marshalled at I had a discussion with the other flag marshal about presenting a stationary yellow after the red flag had gone out. In both cases there was a waved yellow before the incident and the red flag was implemented before the stationary yellow could be shown. In both cases the post I was working at only showed the red the yellow did not appear.

The question I would like an answer to is should the stationary yellow have been shown with the red?

I should also add that one incident happened at a bike meeting and the other at a car meeting although neither at what I consider to be either of my home tracks.

I welcome your views/opinions on this.

roys1 · 3 Apr 2003, 17:52 (Ref:557486)

kaybee, my view on this is it should be shown as well as the red flag to still mark the approach to the incident to approaching drivers.

**Asp** · 3 Apr 2003, 18:25 (Ref:557536)

In theory no - the drivers should be driving slow enough after seeing the red flag to not cause any problems whilst driving through the new danger zone, and any other flag would have no further emphasis and meaning.

Richard Sneader · 3 Apr 2003, 19:32 (Ref:557611)

As far as I understand if you have the yellows out for the incident both stationary and the waved at the next post, after the reds have gone out the yellows stay out with the waved red flag.
It is to show the incident and where it is and there might be all hell happening on the track. So the scene needs protecting and drivers still need warning.
Also it is possible that some drivers may not have passed or seen the incident before the red and so they need the same warning as during a race of where the incident is.
The only difference is the green is brought in when a red goes out as there should!!!! be no overtaking!!!!.
Also if needed the oil and the white goes out as well if required.
So a flaggy could be very busy in a major incident warning everybody and being an extra pair of eyes for the observer and the marshals on track. and as most of the flaggies I know after they have finished with the flagging they do climb down and help with the clear up.Good team work. Also the other side of the coin is if something was to go to appeal as long as you showed the correct flag signal you are OK and there is also the insurance thing.If you drop the stationary yellow and put the red out and a driver who has not passed the incident yet comes round and notices the waved yellow slams the brakes on skids and hits the scene causing injuries and worse then you could be in a lot of trouble for not giving a pre warning: the stationary yellow on the post before.
Hope this helps.
Rich S

EvilPumpkin · 3 Apr 2003, 19:37 (Ref:557617)

My understanding has always been that the yellow flag always remains out in the area of an incident - certainly as long as there's traffic on the track. I would be less concerned about COS and white flags although they're important - as if the driver is properly obeying the yellow/reds, they should not be going fast enough for oil/debris and rescue vehicles to be a problem (although that's in theory.....!

)

We had a discussion ourselves about this recently and came to the conclusion that in actual fact, should you not be in a postion to put out more than one flag, the yellow would probably take priority over the red as the red will be going out all around the circuit whereas the yellow is indicating the actual scene of the incident.....

I'd be interested to know if there's any actual regulations on that?

G Tanner · 3 Apr 2003, 21:12 (Ref:557728)

You should continue to show the yellow flags until such time that all cars have gone by and possibly until such time as all service vehicles have arrived on scene. Whilst Red Flags should dictate that all cars have slowed considerably, we all know that this is not the case, so keep those flags waving.

The incident and the marshals working at the scene need as much protection as possible.

b1ackcr0w · 3 Apr 2003, 23:15 (Ref:557811)

I think Rule Number 1 of Marshalling is key here.

To reinforce what Gary is saying, the Blue book is very comprehensive but cannot cover every eventuality. If a yellow flag will improve the safety of either you, your colleagues, or any of the other people at the track, it can only be a good thing.

Last year I saw some in car footage from a Lister Storm going around a UK circuit that I know puts a lot of effort into getting it's flagging right. It convinced me that the drivers have a fair point when they say that even flags performed correctly can be hard to spot sometimes - give em all the help they can get is what I say.

wickedwitch · 3 Apr 2003, 23:38 (Ref:557830)

Although I agree that theoretically the drivers should be driving slowly and carefully enough after seeing the red flag (proceeding with caution and being prepared to stop or take other evasion action) that they shouldn't have any problems whilst travelling through the hazard area, and that therefore any other flag would be rendered superfluous...... in the real world of marshalling we all know that we can't trust racing drivers to be proceeding carefully.

This is why I think that the hazard area should still be marked with yellows and that it is best to show BOTH red and yellow together.

Obviously, if a course car (eg rescue unit and/or ambulance) has to go out in traffic then they need to be marked with whites too, but they should really be displaying flashing strobes aswell. As EP said - I think that in that case when you only have 2 hands and 3 flags - it's best not to relinquish the yellow, but to drop either the red or white instead, and as the red is being displayed around the circuit anyway, then I think that it's best to drop the red. Or if the rescue unit is parked in a manner which means that flashing strobes are visible no later than the flags - then drop the white. So it can be quite subjective really to what's going on at that time and where it is. I think that's when you have to start using your own common sense and think about what's right for that given situation.

Dan Friel · 4 Apr 2003, 07:26 (Ref:558025)

Red and yellow both require drivers to slow, but only a yellow requires the driver to be prepared to 'take evasive' action. So a yellow should be shown to alert drivers.

2CV Racer · 4 Apr 2003, 07:54 (Ref:558045)

The only reason I would give priority to the red in some circumstances is that the red travels around the circuit from post to post, so not displaying a red at your post may slow down it's deployment at posts after you.

Having said that I agree with above points about keeping the yellow out with the red. Where you would have three or even four flags applicable and only two arms, I would choose yellow and red over all the others.

Flagman · 4 Apr 2003, 08:43 (Ref:558074)

Quote:

The only reason I would give priority to the red in some circumstances is that the red travels around the circuit from post to post, so not displaying a red at your post may slow down it's deployment at posts after you.

I would disagree with this - it does not really matter that much if you impede the flow of the red flag past the incident, as by definition any cars that have passed the incident are not going to be a problem - they will meet the red flag eventually.

Priority should be yellow, oil if required, red, then white.
(how may you display at once depend on the number of arms you have available...)

Reasoning is as follows -

Yellow - indicates the incident
Oil - makes it easier to obey the yellow if not locked up on the oil.
Red - helps pass it on.
White - any rescue units etc. will stop at the incident anyway - so they will be covered by the yellow.

KayBee · 5 Apr 2003, 09:28 (Ref:559136)

Thanx for the input. It had been nagging at me since the second time it happened and I am very pleased to have had your views/opinions.

What do I think should have been done PM me to find out.