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17 Oct 2007, 10:08 (Ref:2042497) | #1 | ||
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Greatest British Cars
I've come across some 'greatest cars' lists on AOL. Some of you may already have seen them but I thought I'd stick them up here to encourage some discussion.
The criteria for what they consider great is unclear, but the lists I've seen seem to be a combination of bestsellers, innovative designs and cars that you just want, even if they're impractical. So far, I've seen British, French, Italian, German and American lists, but I thought Id put them on separately and spread them out a bit. Here's the British list: 1. Jaguar E-type 2. Austin 7 3. Rover 2000 4. Range Rover (original) 5. Nissan Bluebird (built in Sunderland, which they reckon: "showed Britain could still make cars") 6. Jaguar XJ6 7. Morris Minor 8. Mini 9. Jensen FF 10. Jaguar XK120 11. Rover SD1 12. Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost 13. Lotus Elan 14. Land Rover (original) 15. Ford Lotus Cortina 16. Ford GT40 17. Bentley R-Type Continental 18. Bentley 3-litre 19. Austin 1100 20. Aston Martin DB5 I'm slightly surprised the Mini isn't higher and how can there only be one Aston? I am also slightly amused by the inclusion of the GT40, a car that at best could be described as Anglo-American, particularly as the picture they chose was of the distinctly American MkII. So, what do people think? Obvious cars missed? Some that shouldn't be there? |
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17 Oct 2007, 20:55 (Ref:2043080) | #2 | ||
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Ford Excort Mexico should be on there.
Original Bentley "Blower" should be top. Don't understand the XJ6 or Rover SD1. |
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18 Oct 2007, 17:33 (Ref:2043807) | #3 | ||
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I feaqr that this is rather like the "Greatest" films/ songs/ musicals etc, which are almost always focused on more modern times.
Many of these listed were awful! And the lists excludes most of the triumphs of British automobile engineering; like the Lanchester, braring in mind that many of Fred Lanchester's designs and inventions are still being used today, over 100 years later. Which actually shows you how little we have really progressed.................. |
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18 Oct 2007, 17:53 (Ref:2043827) | #4 | ||||
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18 Oct 2007, 22:41 (Ref:2044045) | #5 | |
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Nissan Bluebird ??
Don't think I would every describe the Austin 1100 as a 'great car'. It was especially good looking, not particularly well built and not a great technological leap forward. The transverse engine, hydrolastic suspension features had all been tried and tested in the Mini some years earlier. Agree with Garcon about the XJ6 or SD1, and maybe add the Rover 2000 to that list. Lotus Seven seems an obvious omission. From a modern(ish) standpoint what about the Sierra RS Cosworth or Escort Cosworth? |
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19 Oct 2007, 03:26 (Ref:2044153) | #6 | ||
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I agree where are the Escort and Sierra Cosworth?
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19 Oct 2007, 04:37 (Ref:2044180) | #7 | |||
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19 Oct 2007, 07:42 (Ref:2044291) | #8 | |
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One more suggestion - the Ford Transit. I know strictly speaking it's not a car, but it drove like a car and shared many design features and parts with Ford's car range. In terms of ground-breaking design and it's impact on society it's more than a match for the Morris Minor.
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19 Oct 2007, 07:45 (Ref:2044296) | #9 | ||
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I worked for Ford Europe at the time the GT40 was the supercar.
In fact, all apart from using a US V8 - sorted by Carrol Shelby, the GT40 was of course a Lola, as Ford bought Lola cars. Eric Broadley happily sold the business, with the one proviso that he retained title to the name, Lola. A yoing chum of mine at the time, Roy McFruin was an ex-apprentice with Ford, having gone through the Ford Apprentice School in Essex and was extraordinarily fortunate enough to be posted to what was then FAV (Ford Advanced Vehicles) at Slough. He was constantly talking to Shelby, since part of his job was resourcing parts. Additionally, he was allowed - on Ford's insurance! - to bring cars home at weekend and was often to be seen driving around in a prototype. One weekend he drove home to Essex in an experimental 7 litre job and proceeded to spend all his wages and loads of his Mum and Dad's dosh on petrol, burbling around the horizon! The only real "Ford" component was support services like foundry and certain sub-component fabrication from (mainly) Ford UK and Dearborn. Of course, the subsequent Mk II and the later J type (the one which Ford US designed, which fell to pieces on the Dearborn test track killing the driver, as the rivets and the honeycomb ally-composite monocoque fell apart. John Whitmore and Jack Sears were the early test drivers and Whitmore came to Warley (Ford Europe's Central Office a Near Brentwood Essex) and enraptured a crammed lecture theatre ( perhaps I ought to say, theater!) with his tales of development test driving; like when he and Sears took off over a humped back bridge when they were hackling along, 'cos the aerodynamics weren't quite right! They apparently had enough time for for John to say, "I believe we are going to turn over!" And Sears to respond" Yes, I think you're right!" Designed In Britain: tested in Britain; made in Britain. No more American than any F 5000 or Group 7 car of the era! One amusing footnote to this tale. Apparently the head honchos at Dearborn were very interested in the concept of using motor sport to sell road cars and benefit the company name. They were particularly taken by Le Mans. So some envoys were sent to Mondello and sought audience with Enzo Ferrari carrying a blank cheque! The Commendatore was totally incensed and threw them out of his office! How dare they even consider he would think of selling his beloved company to these uncouth philistines from America! So Ford bought Lola, instead! |
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19 Oct 2007, 12:38 (Ref:2044504) | #10 | ||
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Redshoes. I worked for a main Austin/Morris agents in the 60s and the 1100 was the first to be fitted with hydrolastic suspension. The Mini was fitted with it a couple of years later. I'd like a quid for all the rear subframes I used to fit to them. Considering what other British built cars there were about in 1963 they drove and handled well at the time IMHO.
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Balls of steel (knob of butter) They're Asking For Larkins. ( Proper beer) not you're Eurofizz crap. Hace más calor en España. Me han conocido a hablar un montón cojones! Send any cheques and cash to PO box 1 Lagos Nigeria Africa ! |
19 Oct 2007, 13:16 (Ref:2044538) | #11 | ||
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The old ADO 15 Gordon. Remember it well.
In fact, we bought a second user hydrolastic pimp from our local Stewart and Ardern, 'cos we were always repairing rear subframe bearings etc and we seemed to be the biggest consumers of that awful yellow-green fluid, next to them! One ahum, "Service Fix" I developed, was to fit shims to the main trunnion bolts and drill and tap the cast iron hollow arm to take a standard grease nipple and fill the bloody arm with grease from the pneumatic greaser! Took the play out and stopped that awful crunching noise, for a bit! The later 1300 series using a downgraded version of S head was good; particularly the Wolseley, Riley and MG versions. I ran a Riley Kestrel for a bit, only since it was taxed, tested and ran OK; typical trader, part exchange. We also looked after one of the rare Vanden Plas 1300s. Far too heavy lugging around all that leather and wood! By that time, of course, BLMC were at the end of their effective shelf life, and such " Badge Engineering" was their last desperate attempt at the market. My first 1275 s, in 1966 in fact was hydrolastic, but with anti-sway bars and Koni shockers up front and whilst the diehards claimed the old Moulton suspension was superior, I could march it through corners as quick as most: quicker invariably! I drove Timo Makinen's Monte car in the very early 70s, a full-blown 1293 prepared of course at Abingdon and that was hydrolastic. Seemed to go alright. Well, it certainly scared the Stewart and Arderns Parts Managers wife OK! They had it on a promotion and he kindly -foolishly?- dropped into the garage on his way home to lunch. In no time Feltham had sweet talked him into a drive, ejected all my mechs from under the bonnet, front, rear, boot etc to go and dribble in the workshop and went for a little spin. I still (very rarely) remember this dear lady's white face and feel guilty: not a lot, you understand. |
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20 Oct 2007, 16:22 (Ref:2045464) | #12 | ||
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We had better not talk about the BLMC "Land crab" on here then. Although I can remember a couple of rally one's, and I also seem to remember Paddy Hopkirk coming second in the 1968 London Sydney rally in one. Although I don't know if that particular car was fitted with with hydrolastic suspension for the event. No doubt some anorak will soon tell us.
We used to have on our test route a terrible potholed road that we used to find noises, and you could drive the 1800 flat out in top gear over them and compared with the other BLMC cars at the time A60s with crap lever arm shocks (that were always knackered) wasn't a bad handling car, and far better than the Maxi (yuk)!! |
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Balls of steel (knob of butter) They're Asking For Larkins. ( Proper beer) not you're Eurofizz crap. Hace más calor en España. Me han conocido a hablar un montón cojones! Send any cheques and cash to PO box 1 Lagos Nigeria Africa ! |
20 Oct 2007, 18:44 (Ref:2045544) | #13 | ||
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In fact Gordon, I do agree; the old Hydrolastic Haggis, as chum called them, was not a bad car. Agree about the suspenders: put many - including Ford, Vauxhall, Rootes et al - to shame, at the time.
It was perhaps the other bits around the suspension which let the car down! On the same basis, the Citrôens with ole-pneumatic suspension, like the ID range and the later more modern cars were superb; could be driven up and down a fairly high kerb at 70 mph with impunity. Now, if they had had an engine from, say, Ferrari; styling by Carrozzeria Touring; and geometry by Chapman; plus trimming by Connolly, perhaps it would have been a World beater! We also used to maintain an 1800 rally car that some romantic fool built with as many bits from Abingdon as he could source, as a copy of the few works cars. Ungainly brute. But, in those days, we did many things for money! |
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23 Oct 2007, 07:05 (Ref:2048683) | #14 | ||
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Gordon, having read an article on the LSM by Evan Green the Landcrab did have the hydrolastic suspension - along with double-skinned floors so they would wear through less quickly. It could only do 95mph or so on its MGB spec engine but would do that on any road (or near (?) approximation!). They had a problem near the end when an apprentice doing a spanner check tightened the hub nuts and a wheel fell off, and lost time while replacement parts were flown out and dropped from a plane.
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23 Oct 2007, 18:16 (Ref:2049440) | #15 | ||
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AH! the anorak I was waiting for !!
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Balls of steel (knob of butter) They're Asking For Larkins. ( Proper beer) not you're Eurofizz crap. Hace más calor en España. Me han conocido a hablar un montón cojones! Send any cheques and cash to PO box 1 Lagos Nigeria Africa ! |
24 Oct 2007, 00:51 (Ref:2049792) | #16 | ||
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You're welcome, I think... The LSM along with the Redex/Ampol round Australia trials is something that really fascinates me, and it's not often you see a first hand account from a competitor who can write as well as Evan Green. Mind you a true anorak would be able to tell you if it was the left or right side the wheel fell off, I only remember snippets so can't truly claim that title!
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24 Oct 2007, 01:47 (Ref:2049815) | #17 | |||
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24 Oct 2007, 19:11 (Ref:2050514) | #18 | ||
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875 Looking at the spec of the "crabs" they were fitted with Koni shocks front and rear. One thing I can't find out is what did Evan die of as I note he was only in his 60s. And Slippy, agreed I would certainly have put the Land Rover in but not the Chelsea tractor !
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Balls of steel (knob of butter) They're Asking For Larkins. ( Proper beer) not you're Eurofizz crap. Hace más calor en España. Me han conocido a hablar un montón cojones! Send any cheques and cash to PO box 1 Lagos Nigeria Africa ! |
25 Oct 2007, 21:47 (Ref:2051546) | #19 | ||
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Where's the MGB or Midget? Two great affordable sports cars which sold 100s of 1000s and many are still going today.
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26 Oct 2007, 06:08 (Ref:2051689) | #20 | ||
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And the TR2, Healey BN1, 2 etc; bearing in mind the rally successes of the 3000 MK II with such as Altonan driving.
And the MGA Twin Cam? And if the Jenson Intercepter FF is there (of which they sold about three!), surely the 1940s cars of Reid Railton simply have to be there, since they were groundbreaking in technology and appearance terms? And this, to me, is the problem with such lists: they are wholly subjective and can only be graded by personal preference. It's like saying "What were the best British Aircraft?" Most would probably want to list Spit; Concord and Harrier; however, what about XXXXXXXXXXXXXX etc?? Agree about the Spridgets; got to, really as I used to race one! And had at least three as road cars. |
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26 Oct 2007, 13:17 (Ref:2051992) | #21 | |||
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I'd put the Gordon Keeble on that list (although it might not be allowed because of its American engine) instead of both the DB5 and the Jensen, both of which were lorries in comparison. |
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26 Oct 2007, 13:38 (Ref:2052010) | #22 | ||
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Part of me thinks the Austin Ambassador should be there, just as an object (abject?) lesson in how not to make a car and, at least in part, how to herald the death of a national car industry.
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26 Oct 2007, 15:17 (Ref:2052081) | #23 | ||
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lotus esprit
jaguar E-type caterham 7 / lotus 7 lotus cortina lotus elan land rover range rover jaguar MK2 aston martin DB5 ford GT40 aston martin vantage(not the sexy little new one, the mid 1990's 2 ton 550bhp rocketpowered palace, man that car is just the business.) zytek 07S, the loveliest racing car of all time |
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1 Jan 2008, 18:12 (Ref:2097669) | #24 | |||
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I agree that the MGB should probably be in there and, as Slippy Diff says, the Range Rover and Land Rover should probably swap places. I think the justification for the Range Rover being so high was that it invented a whole new type of car - the 4x4 for the road - which as far as I'm concerned would be a piece of evidence that should be used to banish it from the list for ever more! Just as an idea, what about the Aston Martin DB7? The original wasn't perfect but it did basically save the company and provided the basis for the current model family. And the design still looks fantastic. |
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8 Feb 2008, 22:59 (Ref:2124493) | #25 | |||
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I'll chuck in my threepennethworth for the Jaguar XK120 - having only seen one for the first time at Autosport 2008 I have to say it's devestatingly attractive. Has that waist-to-hip-like curve. And the Cortina should have been higher. Because you never forget your first love |
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