Jenson gets ugly

Alan Jones · 3 Mar 2001, 07:03 (Ref:67739)

Looked at a article from autosport.com in which Jenson states he wants to be just like TGW with the same aggressive style of driving yesterday and was astounded with a few of his comments.Apparently he said that the only thing wrong with TGW's move on JV in 1997 was that he didn't get away with it! I would be interested to no what you the forum think of this situation and just how far we want to see how drivers go to win. Personally I want to watch a race, not a demo derby. I had a great deal of respect for Shu until he showed the ugly side of his nature and have lost all interest in him because of this. All that talent no longer deserves my respect as if he can't win fair and square, he shouldn't be on the track. After watching a full season of racing the last race should never, ever be decided this way.Shu has acted this way twice and I hope we never see him get away with this sort of behaviour again. Lets hope Jackie Stewart or another true gentleman of F1 can take Jenson out to the woodshed and give him the spanking he deserves. Hopefully as he matures so will his outlook on just where you draw the line out on the track.

Gt_R · 3 Mar 2001, 07:27 (Ref:67741)

i think Alan Jones would laugh off your comments. I'm sure he would have seen more.

And i like Jenson more after he said that......Great Senna and Great Prost did it, i dont see why now people are making a fuss over Schumacher. I dunt see anything wrong with his actions, as it is natural to do all within one's mean to keep his championship. I do not expect to see some sissies to just give their championship hopes away. Michael tried to nudge or tap his opponents off, which isnt exactly the most dangerous thing to do. Its not as if he tried a David Coulthard's extremely dangerous slowing down at Spa high speed straights move on Damon or Jacques. I dont see a problem with that, neither do other drivers like Prost and Lauda...just a mismatch in opinions i guess~

Alan Jones · 3 Mar 2001, 07:43 (Ref:67744)

Fair enough , but didn't your parents teach you that 2 wrongs don't make a right ? This probably sounds niave, but I want to see the winner outdrive everyone on the track, not push them out out of the way. "It's just not sporting old man" ( in my best Brit uppercrust accent!)As for the DC situation, if you believe he would seriously drive slowly down the track hoping that TGW would run up his clacker at 200 mph I suggest you calmly consider,would you do something like that. .... I didn't think so and I don't see DC intentionally trying to start a life threatening accident either. Even Irvine isn't that stupid.

**Peter Mallett** · 3 Mar 2001, 09:38 (Ref:67761)

TGF has done many things which I can't justify. Among them is that move on Villeneauve. It was not only dangerous it was downright stupid.

As I said about other drivers last year, the PR machine often tells them what to say, instead of allowing them to say what they think. I've heard Button say that before and it seems to go against his overall character which is calm and considered. So, IMO its just one of those "lets make Button more aggressive" PR things.

TimD · 3 Mar 2001, 09:56 (Ref:67770)

That's an interesting take on it, Peter. I hadn't considered that. But when thinking about it, I find myself wondering if Jenson has ever actually tried to employ the tactics he's talking about, and to be honest, I don't think he has.

I don't count the incidents with Jarno Trulli last year - I think those can be put down to "racing accidents".

As for the things that have gone before - well, Schumacher went down in my estimation when he tried what he did. I actually lost a wager over him when I accepted someone's bet before the Jerez race that he would not fight clean!

I regarded Senna in the same light - brilliantly talented but flawed. There is no bias in this. I show no favouritism or prejudice. I just like to see fast, clean racing, and if a driver can find no other way around his opponent than to spin him out or worse, then the place for his racing is Wimbledon Stadium in a beaten-up old Ford Granada.

Watching an old race the other day (1983 German GP), I was struck by an incident with Andrea de Cesaris and Eddie Cheever. Andrea was doing his normal "rolling chicane" impression, and when Cheever finally forced his way through, he exhibited his anger by edging him towards the grass. In the commentary box, James Hunt was startled and then outraged by the incident, and regarded Cheever's move as unnecessary and despicable.

How times change!

Here's hoping for a season where Jenson Button starts to pick up tips from a few gentleman racers, and for a season when Hakkinen and Schumacher can be seen to race hard but clean.

Gt_R · 3 Mar 2001, 13:53 (Ref:67809)

Quote: Here's hoping for a season where Jenson Button starts to pick up tips from a few gentleman racers, and for a season when Hakkinen and Schumacher can be seen to race hard but clean.

Well, we had it last year, dint we?

Liz · 3 Mar 2001, 14:28 (Ref:67815)

The thing that bothers me - besides this idea that if you have a great talent, trying to kill other pilots is an expected part of your job description - is that something Senna, Prost and possibly TGF can get away with because they are able to ram someone off the track and not kill either of them (due to a finely judged ability to hit the other guy [whom he instantly denies he even saw] in the right place ...is something that Pedro Diniz, Tarso Marques and Jenson Button, for example, cannot. And what you are going to end up with is one of the midfield guys trying to ram somebody off the track and killing him, and from his hospital bed where he has paralyzed himself to boot, the gonzo backmarker will say "I thought it was an okay move - because That's What Schumacher Does." And then you will hear a lot of crying and the next two years will be full of attempts to lock the barn door after the horse is dead.

This is not sportsmanship and this is not honourable, and this is not right.

If the trend toward hiring teenagers with little in-car experience continues, and if there is no leadership among the veteran pilots to champion the cause of Hard, Clean Racing Without Deliberate Attempt to Injure, we're going to end up with dead pilots.

And that's the name of that tune.

**Peter Mallett** · 3 Mar 2001, 15:53 (Ref:67837)

Liz,

Whilst your general point is correct I think you'll find its the skill of the victim which has saved the situation rather than the skill of the attacker. In Prost's case at Suzuka '89 he was lucky not to roll over. However Hill was able to control his car after TGF nerfed him in Australia '94 and Villeneave (I believe) knew TGF would try it on and just got his car into a position where minimal damage would occur.

In many junior classes we see the tendency to nerf rather than pass. IMHO this is because cars are too safe now. Once upon a time a Formula Ford would end up as a carrier bag of bits if you just tapped it. Nowadays they seem like tanks! Ergo, the drivers think they can barge their way around the track.

The fans watch this and don't know better therefore you get the comments seen above and elsewhere. Tim's quite correct in hoping that Button and others learn from "gentlemen" racers. But how many are there today? The last (i propose) was Damon Hill and look at the way he was treated?

Hans.ca · 3 Mar 2001, 16:27 (Ref:67841)

If my memory is correct TGF did it three times. Once to HHF while driving in F3 and then Hill and JV. There is no excuse for this style of driving.
Driving like that was quit common in the Midgets on dirt tracks in the USA in l950 to late 1960. Midgets even today have nerve bars in front of the rear wheels. This is to prevent the wheel riding up on another wheel.
Just wait until sombody places a front wheel in front of the rear wheel on TGF's car and then hits the brakes. Quit possibly that would cause an accident that could kill a driver. Then there will be lots of crying, finger pointing and blaming everyody, but then it is to late.
The only cure for sombody deliberately trying to push another driver off the track is expulsion from the sport.

M Coupe · 3 Mar 2001, 18:30 (Ref:67862)

Judging by qualifying in Melbourne Jenson Button isn't going to get the chance to try out any TGW manouvers as he will be too far back, and anyway what s the point in taking someone off for 15th place.

Valve Bounce · 4 Mar 2001, 02:50 (Ref:67986)

Hans.ca, I think your memory serves you incorrectly. TGF actually started his monkey business when he ran Mika into a concrete wall in Macau. I don't normally want to revisit Jerez, but I feel I must correct some misconceptions about that incident. I had taped the race and was able to watch the incident on freeze frame. From the in cockpit shot, you can see that TGF actually made two movements on his steering wheel towards jacques. The first movement would have resulted in an innocuous wheel bangong incident, so TGF quickly moved the steering wheel back in the opposite lock until Jacques had his front wheel past TGF's, then TGF jerked his steering wheel over hard towards the Williams which would have launched the Williams into the air. Fortunately, he mistimed it slightly and his wheel hit the Williams sidepod and bounced away sufficiently for Jacques's rear wheel to clear the Ferrari's front wheel. For those who do not believe me, try to get a tape of the race, go to a friend who has a Sharp VCR with freeze frame, and check it out for yourself. From that moment on, I never wanted to see TGF do well in quals or any race. I still want Ferrari to win, but that is different. I admire the guys skills, but that doesn't mean I have to like the guys character.

Liz · 4 Mar 2001, 06:34 (Ref:68041)

He also rammed Frenzy off the track in Montreal, I think in '98 - Frenzy was on the racing line and TGF was coming out of the pits. On this occasion he claimed "I didn't see him."

Pete, you may be right that it is the victim who saves the situation - it certainly was so in Estoril, and I am certain to this day that Senna never considered for a moment that Prost would not save them and many others from the hideous death that would have resulted had the cars locked wheels and gone over the wall into the pitlane.

And finally I have to admit that tonight I was not pleased with Rubens for nerfing Frenzy off the track. He clearly had no room to get by safely and should not have forced the move. Good for Frenzy for fighting back to the front and getting that point.

Valve Bounce · 4 Mar 2001, 07:53 (Ref:68051)

I actually thought, at the time, that Rubens should have been black flagged and brought into the pits for a ten second penalty. Surely he deserved on more than Bunsen.

Airhead · 4 Mar 2001, 11:48 (Ref:68094)

Valve Bounce,

I thought the same thing. Ten seconds for Rubens for being too adventurous under brakes. It didn't come about, probably because of the colour of his car. It's all a conspiracy!

**Peter Mallett** · 4 Mar 2001, 17:23 (Ref:68187)

Quote:

Originally posted by Liz

And finally I have to admit that tonight I was not pleased with Rubens for nerfing Frenzy off the track. He clearly had no room to get by safely and should not have forced the move. Good for Frenzy for fighting back to the front and getting that point.

Bugger!!!

Rather like Hill + TGF at Silverstone I thought RB was over ambitious but not a black flag/penalty incident. I even thought it was good to see him try hard for a change.

Still I can't be right all the time can I?

Valve Bounce · 4 Mar 2001, 21:25 (Ref:68251)

I would love to see Rubens try that one on TGF.

**Peter Mallett** · 5 Mar 2001, 07:53 (Ref:68391)

Quote:

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
I would love to see Rubens try that one on TGF.

Then he'd really go up in my estimation!!!

Airhead · 5 Mar 2001, 08:38 (Ref:68395)

Yes, if Rubens tried it on the TGW I'd join his fan club.

The poetic justice of it all. Afterwards they could both cry, it's a script writers dream.

Alan Jones · 5 Mar 2001, 23:15 (Ref:68656)

Ive got membership fee ready now....!

What a great way to finish the Italian GP, Not only Shu and Rubino crying, but the whole of the audience as well as Italy. One to dream about.....

Raoul Duke · 6 Mar 2001, 02:46 (Ref:68721)

Micheal Schumacher has often had a reckless driving nature. Sorry but his way of driving is simply not sportsmanlike and I can't repesct someone who uses those tactics, no matter how telanted he is. If Button heads in the same direction, then there will soon be 2 drivers that I dislike in F1, rather then just 1.

RussianFriend · 6 Mar 2001, 10:04 (Ref:68812)

If Rubinio wouldn't like to give us such a pleasure, Buttom may play this part.

Devoted follower beats his idol in idol's own favourite way!
This script will be blockbuster!

Regarding the gentelmen in F1, I think Alesi is last one.

Valve Bounce · 6 Mar 2001, 10:49 (Ref:68819)

I think that Mika is also a thorough gentleman. His response during the FIA interview just after he lost the WDC last year showed a lot of class. In all honesty, I think he is the best driver around right now.

Airhead · 6 Mar 2001, 11:04 (Ref:68822)

Valve,

Mika is the best all round driver, as in he won't resort to nerfing others to win. I agree. He is also blindingly quick in what has appeared to be not the best car last year and this (so far). I just question his consistency in comparison to TGW.

Gt_R · 6 Mar 2001, 15:26 (Ref:68878)

*YAWN*
At this pt of time, i would not defend MS...its pointless in me trying to let sme of u see my side of things...but its okay~

But regarding the Rubens and HHF thing, i believe its totally ridiculous for people to but the blame on Rubens. Its just that an overtaking move that did not work out. If Rubens had managed to muscle past successfully, everyone would be here saying "Rubens is good and aggressive...i knew it since he started F1" or "HHF is so weak, he cant even stop rubens lame move".
Every overtaking move is a risk, and the outcome is decided by both drivers. Rubens made the move, HHF decides not to give him any room, and they touched...thats it!
Look at the Spa move in 2000 by Mika. he did it successfully and was treated like god...but if it turns out that when passing Zonta, he puts his wheels on the grass and spins, people would be saying "Mika is not mentally strong as Schumi to think on the track!"
Its just so amazing how the same people could be singing a different tune to the way things work out. And its also pretty lame. You really think its that easy to make an overtaking move??

Look at Melbourne when DC overtook Rubens from the outside. Its beautifully executed by DC AND Rubens. DC is brave enough to try, and he is sensible enough to give Rubens room to drive on the inside. Rubens was also fair enough not to edge DC off the track by taking the tighter line. Aggressive and it worked out...

Please thank god that Rubens make it a point to attempt an overtaking move for position. We are in F1 to watch racing...and the beauty of overtaking is that it does NOT always work out. Whats the excitement level if one knows that every attempt to pass surely succeed??? And what is the point to have a faster car trailing behind a slower car, because he fears that if he pulls a move and fail, he wud be stoned by some "people who knows better" "or think so".

Rubens is paid to do the job, to get the best results. And so are the other 21 drivers. Give them a break.

Gt_R · 6 Mar 2001, 15:28 (Ref:68879)

*YAWN*
At this pt of time, i would not defend MS...its pointless in me trying to let sme of u see my side of things...but its okay~

But regarding the Rubens and HHF thing, i believe its totally ridiculous for people to but the blame on Rubens. Its just that an overtaking move that did not work out. If Rubens had managed to muscle past successfully, everyone would be here saying "Rubens is good and aggressive...i knew it since he started F1" or "HHF is so weak, he cant even stop rubens lame move".
Every overtaking move is a risk, and the outcome is decided by both drivers. Rubens made the move, HHF decides not to give him any room, and they touched...thats it!
Look at the Spa move in 2000 by Mika. he did it successfully and was treated like god...but if it turns out that when passing Zonta, he puts his wheels on the grass and spins, people would be saying "Mika is not mentally strong as Schumi to think on the track!"
Its just so amazing how the same people could be singing a different tune to the way things work out. And its also pretty lame. You really think its that easy to make an overtaking move??

Look at Melbourne when DC overtook Rubens from the outside. Its beautifully executed by DC AND Rubens. DC is brave enough to try, and he is sensible enough to give Rubens room to drive on the inside. Rubens was also fair enough not to edge DC off the track by taking the tighter line. Aggressive and it worked out...

Please thank god that Rubens make it a point to attempt an overtaking move for position. We are in F1 to watch racing...and the beauty of overtaking is that it does NOT always work out. Whats the excitement level if one knows that every attempt to pass surely succeed??? And what is the point to have a faster car trailing behind a slower car, because he fears that if he pulls a move and fail, he wud be stoned by some "people who knows better" "or think so".

Rubens is paid to do the job, to get the best results. And so are the other 21 drivers. Give them a break.

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