Do Senna fans really hate Michael Schumacher?!!

[Yoong Montoya]

I read somewhere that at the start of MS career the Brazillian television station refered to him as 'the German', never by his real name! Is this true? And, do fans of Senna try to put Schumacher down due to his so-called dirty tactics, when in fact they are also putting Senna down without knowing it, since he used tactics that were even worse than MS?

If this is the case, then the only thing I can conclude that for a successful driver to be considered a true great, he has to get killed while racing!

[strad]

Easy trap but we have many GREATs that have lived........

[Damon]

You can not compare what Senna and Schumacher did in the same breath. Senna resorted to admitadly dirty tactics on once and once only. The reason, as he said, is that he felt that was the only way he could pay back Prost and the FIA for his horendously unfair treatment in 1989 following the incident in Japan. The FIA was almost as corrupt then as it is now in Balestre's favouritism for Prost. It was a personal grugde that he felt he needed to settled. If it was 'a thing he did' why not take out Mansell in 91 the same way?

Schu on the other hand will resort to dirty tactics regardless of the situation. He has done it numorous times to multiple drivers, simply as a last resort. The two situations are very different.

[paulzinho]

Senna was my idol but I dont hate Michael, in fact i'm one of his fans. However I don't believe that Michael was in the same league as Senna, not in a million years. Look at 1993. Michael had a superior package, Senna had a lump of and he still whupped everyone except Prost, whom he kept honest and who was in a machine that was a cut above the rest.

As for the dirty tactics, Prost at the chicane in 1989 anyone? Senna took revenge against the corruption of Balestre, members of the FIA couldn't believe some of the decisions he made, thats how bad it was (or so i've read anyway).

As for Michael he's a great driver and is one whom I admire tremendously but for me Ayrton will always be the best. Even Michael admits Senna would have been champion in 1994 once Williams sorted out their car (it was too late for Senna).

RIP Ayrton.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by paulzinho

As for the dirty tactics, Prost at the chicane in 1989 anyone?

a very clever move by PROST saw that SENNA would be blamed for the incident when SENNA was making a genuine overtaking manouvere!

Originally posted by paulzinho
Senna took revenge against the corruption of Balestre, members of the FIA couldn't believe some of the decisions he made,

as i understand it, SENNA didn't ram PROST due to the events of 1989, it was because, after securing pole, SENNA was put on the dirty side for the start

[R]

How anyone can claim that Senna used "worse" tactics than TGF is beyond me... Damon is spot on in his post, the favouritism for Prost back then was almost as bad as the favouritism for TGF is now. Yes, the debacle over the pole was the reason for Senna ramming Prost, and I believe he regretted lowering himself to that level. However, the FIA was to blame, and one would have thought they would have learned not to play favourites, but no... Montoya will be punished for doing nothing - same as Senna was punished in 89 for missing part of the course, yet, when Prost did the same thing, he wasn't punished. Complete idiocy. In that light, how on earth can Senna's move be compared to those of TGF, who not only do the moves, and much worse so than Senna, but at the same time have the entire "establishment" in his pocket? The situations are just lightyears apart.

As for the "hate" thing. It's a strong word, and not the kind of word I would use in this context. But to be blunt - a lot of TGF's initial success was achieved solely because Senna was not around anymore. So perhaps Senna fans dislike TGF because he's racking up the statistics that most probably would have belonged to Senna had he not been taken from us?

[Liz]

Of course I disagree with the characterization of Prost, And in fact Senna regretted his intemperate outbursts, admitted they were falsehoods, and made up with Prost (after Prost made numerous overtures that were rebuffed.) Senna was well known to believe that the fact he had said or done something made it legal, right and true. ("But I am Senna!" he would say when someone pointed out the difference between what he said Prost, Irvine or others should not be allowed to do and what he himself did.)

And in that way I think that Senna and TGF are exactly alike. Both men lived above the law and believed that this was their divine right.

And frankly I don't like either one of them.

[freud]

I am a Senna fan and I dont hate Schumacher. I just think he has achieved more than he deserves.... that's it.

[Tristan]

I think both are the bee's knees because that's the kind of driver I LIKE. Simple.

[f1manoz]

Originally posted by paulzinho
Senna took revenge against the corruption of Balestre, members of the FIA couldn't believe some of the decisions he made, thats how bad it was (or so i've read anyway).

I don't believe revenge should be taken out by ramming a fellow competitor off the track in such a fashion as what happened in Suzuka in 1990. It was a reckless, stupid and completely dangerous manouvre which could have easily killed either/both driver(s).

[calais]

to answer the original question...........YES!!

[Red]

Originally posted by Yoong Montoya
I read somewhere that at the start of MS career the Brazillian television station refered to him as 'the German', never by his real name!

Good point this is. Maybe we should discuss this again.

[f1manoz]

Let's not start THAT one again!

[calais]

and the point being????
its the same as HIS fans giving hill death threats and doing likewise to DC a few years later!!!

[Red]

Originally posted by calais
and the point being????
its the same as HIS fans giving hill death threats and doing likewise to DC a few years later!!!

This was for me? The point is "TGF is not insulting etc."

(Last paragraph beats me completely)

[Amaroo Park]

I really don't believe that Michael Schumacher should be mentioned in the same breath as Senna. I don't hate Schumacher but i don't like him either

[calais]

no red, it was to the quote itself, not you

[steve_r]

Originally posted by paulzinho
Senna was my idol but I dont hate Michael, in fact i'm one of his fans. However I don't believe that Michael was in the same league as Senna, not in a million years. Look at 1993. Michael had a superior package, Senna had a lump of and he still whupped everyone except Prost, whom he kept honest and who was in a machine that was a cut above the rest.

None of his (reasonably fast) team mates (Herbert, Brundle, Verstappen, Irvine) could get anywhere near him. Only Rubens can get anywhere close. Surely that is what we look at to see how good a driver really is. Just how much better was the Williams when Sch won the titles in the Benneton? MSch definately in same league as Senna.

[calais]

steve r, you are forgetting the fact that his teamates did not and dont have equal status in HIS teams.
i remember herbert complaining in 95 that he was not allowed to test, was not allowed to look at MS's telemetry,and the same could be sais of irvine and the rest.
definately not in senna's league,or prosts.

[steve_r]

Yeah Calais, I know what you are saying. But that is all testimony to MSch, he exploded onto the scene in F1. Team managers recognised his immense speed, decided that he was world champion material, and built their whole team around the guy. What does that tell you about MSch? He has got to be in the same league as Senna.

[calais]

yes but because of those facts i stated, their accomplishments cannot be seen in the same light.
that is my view anyway

[steve_r]

Senna & MSch are unique drivers. Both brilliant, if only Imola had not happened...

[laudaman]

Originally posted by steve_r


None of his (reasonably fast) team mates (Herbert, Brundle, Verstappen, Irvine) could get anywhere near him. Only Rubens can get anywhere close. Surely that is what we look at to see how good a driver really is. Just how much better was the Williams when Sch won the titles in the Benneton? MSch definately in same league as Senna.

Sorry but I have to agree with Paulzinho on this one. In '93, Schumacher had the factory Ford engine and won one race whereas Senna had the customer Ford and won 5. Also, many people think Schumacher is the best driver in the wet but they seem to forget that he was one of the drivers blown away on the first lap at Donnington by Senna who, I'll reiterate, was in the worse car.

Senna is the greatest driver ever IMO. You only have to look at the number of poles he gained in 10 years, with a significant number being achieved at Lotus who probably only had the third or fourth best car when he was there (Dumfries & Nakajima showed where the car should have been on the grid), and also the margins he achieved (beating everyone by less than half a second was a rare occurance).

Also, if Prost had not had been around, Senna would have achieved a lot more and would be in the situation that Schumacher is in now. Schumacher has not had anyone who he can fight it out in the championship with and his utter domination shows this. As one of the previous messages said, he has achieved a lot more than he should have.

[Sato san]

Originally posted by calais
i remember herbert complaining in 95 that he was not allowed to test, was not allowed to look at MS's telemetry,

Herbert pushed MS very quick in early 95 , but as soon as MS felt Johnny was a threat to him , he had the team make him race with his hands tied halfway behind his back .

This is where the word RESPECT comes back into conversation . If MS is really the best , why try to slow down your team mates ?, if your the best driver out there , you should be able to beat the best , which in my mind means that you should surely be able to beat Johnny Herbert fair and square , without resorting to such silly actions . Which in effect , half killed Johnny's career ! .

[steve_r]

Yes, Senna beat Schu back in '93. Was that Schu's first full GP season? I can't remember, but do you really want me to respond?

Ok, IMO: I don't think Schu was quite as his peak in 93, somthing to do with lack of experience. The raw speed was obvoiusly there though. You cannot possibly use this example to say that Senna was in a different league to Schu.

If Hakkinen & Hill were not around then Schu would have won many more races. This just as pointless as your argument about Prost taking wins off Senna. Schu did "Fight it out" with those two and with Villeneuve. You can only race against who else is on the grid. Presumably with F1 being the pinnacle of motorsport, you will always have some of the very best in the world driving F1 at any given time.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, but when you have people spouting rubbish that Schu is not even in the same league as Senna, I have to speak up. For the record, I am not a Schu fan, but I want to know when will people stop dissing his amazing achievements, just because thay don't like him.