Motorsport as a religion, Noise and Nimbys

SWCRacing · 23 Nov 2009, 10:38 (Ref:2587715)

having heard a rumour that the company that represented the complainants at Croft have been letter-dropping residents around Brands Hatch with the intention of beginning a Noise complaint about Brands, together with their alledged intent to stop motorsport in the UK, an idea was formed with a friend over the weekend.

A few years ago, during the last census in this country, some 390,000 people put "Jedi" down on their forms as their Religion. The upshot of this was that there are many reports in the press of various organisations recognising this religion and therefore granting it the protection from discrimination that mainstream religions have.

Now, if EVERY licence holder in UK motorsport (Race, Rally, Hillclimb, Bike, etc) together with the Orange Army of volunteer marshals were to put "Motorsport" down on any official form that requests their religion, this would be a sizeable number!

If the Religion of Motorsport was recoginsed (even only by the media), then our places of worship, namely the circuits, hillclimbs, rally venues etc should be afforded the protection from discrimination that any Human Rights legislation gives??

Al Weyman · 23 Nov 2009, 11:22 (Ref:2587743)

Quote:

together with their alledged intent to stop motorsport in the UK

Is that statement for real, are there really people hell bent on this? No wonder my neighbours in snobby Watford Heath a well known Liberal Democrat stronghold look down their noses at me.

SWCRacing · 23 Nov 2009, 12:11 (Ref:2587781)

I would believe the source

aland · 23 Nov 2009, 13:49 (Ref:2587801)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Is that statement for real, are there really people hell bent on this? No wonder my neighbours in snobby Watford Heath a well known Liberal Democrat stronghold look down their noses at me.

it is amazing the amount of bigotry against motorsport in this country, no other sport gets this level of abuse, football fans regularly wreck town centres and cause havoc, this is tolerated, rugby fans turn up and drink to excess before p!$$ing and spewing everywhere again nothing is said. Yet motorsport contributes so much to the nation's economy from the big F1 teams to the smaller cottage fabricators. Motorsport fans are generally well behaved and friendly, they support their sport financially and with the volunteer input they support it physically. he orange army contribute financially as we spend a lot on fuel and accomodation not to mention using our skills where needed in normal life. How many marshals when encountering a RTA on the road stop and use their skills, i would say most of us do.

These NIMBY's really leed to stop reading the daily mail and look at the broader picture, we will stand united to save our sport if need me and thsi motorsport is my religion may be one way of doing so. Only thing is does that make Max Mosely as head of FIA or Alan Gow as head of the MSA our god

ascarmarshal · 23 Nov 2009, 13:49 (Ref:2587802)

I live in West Kingsdown and have had no letter from anyone about Brands Hatch and noise

**Tim Falce** · 23 Nov 2009, 13:57 (Ref:2587805)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ascarmarshal

I live in West Kingsdown and have had no letter from anyone about Brands Hatch and noise

We know where you and Rod Birley live so saved the wasted postage.

ascarmarshal · 23 Nov 2009, 14:07 (Ref:2587815)

If I do get a letter they will get one back telling them excatley where to go and stop trying to put me out of job

Gerryc · 23 Nov 2009, 15:30 (Ref:2587878)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ascarmarshal

If I do get a letter they will get one back telling them excatley where to go and stop trying to put me out of job

Better still, if you get such a letter, publish it on here and we'll ALL tell them exactly where to go - and probably how to get there!

Al Weyman · 23 Nov 2009, 16:14 (Ref:2587896)

These 'activists' probably monitor this site anyhow and would be well aware not to send Rod anything, can you imagine if these nutters start getting like the Animal Liberation Front and start aggressive action against anyone involved with the sport (it could happen), this is all a result of this governments hysterical adverts and lies about Climate Change which is a means to bleed us all dry anyhow. To quote another well known historical activist, 'He without sin throw the first stone' as I am damn sure they all have cars and go on holidays to sunnier climes.

ascarmarshal · 23 Nov 2009, 16:28 (Ref:2587906)

I have enough problems going on at the moment without having to fight NIMBY's so that I can work at Brands hatch

**Tim Falce** · 23 Nov 2009, 16:53 (Ref:2587912)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

......this is all a result of this governments hysterical adverts and lies about Climate Change which is a means to bleed us all dry anyhow. To quote another well known historical activist, 'He without sin throw the first stone' as I am damn sure they all have cars and go on holidays to sunnier climes.

Al, I'm now confused, I thought you were a greenie after reading this thread.
I've even bought you a pair of sandals for Christmas.

Steven Humphrey · 23 Nov 2009, 17:23 (Ref:2587927)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

having heard a rumour that the company that represented the complainants at Croft have been letter-dropping residents around Brands Hatch

I wonder what the carbon footprint of producing & delivering all these letters will be?

This really is just scare mongering, I think. I'm pretty sure the majority of the public have absolutely no problem with motorsport. Yes, things are changing on a global scale, regarding green issues, but motorsport is addressing this-just look at the diesel & hybrid cars being developed.

I'm sure that the amount of CO2 produced by the footballing masses on a weekend massively outweigh that produced in motorsport. Just think of the millions of fans worldwide & how they get to the stadiums. Plus the floodlights, water used to maintain the pitch, disruption to people living near the stadiums. While I'm at it-what about golf? How much water must be used to keep greens green in the Las Vegas desert? Sorry but I just don't buy the belief that motorsport is the worst offender in the grand scheme of things. And if it does all go tits up-we can always race G-wizzes & Teslas

SWCRacing · 23 Nov 2009, 17:54 (Ref:2587951)

Please do not get distracted by so called "Green Issues", one can argue about the truth of the "Carbon Footprint" brigade till blue in the face (Just read the emails leaked from the University of East Anglia last week!)

Crofts problems stem from noise, and the fact that that noise was held in law to be a nuisance.

All someone who suffers a nuisance has to prove is that it is detrimental to their rights, and they are then entitled to compensation. Plus the maker of the nuisance must cease!

That will be the way the Nimbys in this country destroy the passtime of thousands and the employment of countless more!

Steven Humphrey · 23 Nov 2009, 18:54 (Ref:2587982)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

Please do not get distracted by so called "Green Issues", one can argue about the truth of the "Carbon Footprint" brigade till blue in the face (Just read the emails leaked from the University of East Anglia last week!)

Crofts problems stem from noise, and the fact that that noise was held in law to be a nuisance.!

Point taken. It still amazes me when people move near to a circuit & then complain about the noise, just as people who move near an airport do. I live in a pretty quiet village but have a mainline railway about 500 meters away. The trains can be quite loud if the wind is blowing this way. However we just accept it's always been there & always will. I wonder what would happen if the villagers started a campaign to get the line closed down? Would it be taken seriously? I doubt it.

Tal Aras · 23 Nov 2009, 20:23 (Ref:2588034)

I think the key part of the first post is "... a company that represented..." or in other words someone who made money out of the Croft legal process.

I wouldn't be surprised if a similar letter has gone out near every motorsport circuit in the UK.

Alfaholic · 23 Nov 2009, 20:36 (Ref:2588042)

Motorsport as religion - how about a new Lord's prayer then...

Our Father, who art in Brands Hatch,
Birley be thy name.
Thy trophy come,
thy wins be done,
on Saturday as they are on Sunday
Give us this day our daily revs.
And forgive us our decibels,
as we forgive those who protest against us.
And lead us not into oblivion,
but deliver us from nimbys.
For thine is the (West) Kingsdown, the power and the glory. For ever and ever.
Vroom Vroom

TIMELORD · 23 Nov 2009, 20:59 (Ref:2588053)

Hallelujah!

mountainstar · 23 Nov 2009, 21:36 (Ref:2588067)

I remember the club I belong to in NZ had to help buy up 7 properties to stop people from whining about noise.

Or you can do what a company I work for did. People were whining about the noise they make at the track so they bought 900 acres elsewhere and are building their own private track. Problem solved and the locals don't have our business anymore.

Steven Humphrey · 23 Nov 2009, 22:29 (Ref:2588095)

Or just send them all earplugs?

noiles · 23 Nov 2009, 22:52 (Ref:2588108)

This nutter got his deeply held environmental beliefs to be considered by the court as the same as religious beliefs. Therefore he's entitled to the same protections as religions have. From the article:

Quote:

In a significant decision today , a judge found Nicholson's views on the environment were so deeply held that they were entitled to the same protection as religious convictions

I put it to anyone that my views on motorsport are so deeply held as to be entitled to the same protection as a religion.

The difference between him and me is that this guy has managed to convince a judge. So we need to find a test case to contest. When a circuit is next challenged we need to stand up for it. A number of us need to attend and give our view, citing this nutter as precedence and convince a judge that we're to be afforded the same treatment.

Once the judge acknowledges that we're entitled to religious protection we can claim any interference with our right to practice our religion at a circuit is in direct violation of the the human rights act 1998:

Quote:

Article 9 - Freedom of Thought, Conscience and Religion

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.

Now article 9 is a qualified right in as much as (2) contains the text:

Quote:

Freedom to manifest one’s religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

It could be argued - and probably would be argued - that by practicing our religion we are infringing on the rights and freedoms of others, ie noise pollution etc. However I can't see how this is any different to the happy clappy church down the road clogging up the road with the faithful after a service. They all seem to spend an hour wandering about the place in a daze, crossing the road without looking and stopping to double and triple park while saying goodbyes. And no one's calling for their house of worship to be banned.

Given that situation we could probably call on Article 14:

Quote:

Article 14 - Prohibition of Discrimination

The enjoyment of the rights and freedoms set forth in this Convention shall be secured without discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status.

Note that you can't discriminate on religion there. So if it's good enough for the church down the road so it would be for our circuit, er, church.

The Human Rights Act 1998 allows us to seek redress for our grievances in the UK courts so we can theoretically resolve this on home shores with a minimum of expense and fuss. However, should we not achieve satisfaction here we can always choose to pursue the matter in Strasbourg at the European Courts. More expensive, more hassle, exactly what the 1998 law here was designed to avoid. But it's possible. And with the recent triumph of common sense over nimby-ism that saved Spa in Belgium, this isn't an issue that's just affecting the UK. It's European as well.

I guess what I'm saying is that we have options. It just depends on interpretation. And convincing the person whose interpretation counts in each case. Which could be simple or could be hard. I'm not a lawyer. Just a national b license holder (as of Jan 2010 when my shiny new licence is valid) who would hate to see our religion hobbled.

Is anyone here a lawyer? Can we try this next time a circuit is challenged? Is there a glaringly obvious flaw in my logic that I can't see?

Al Weyman · 23 Nov 2009, 23:50 (Ref:2588125)

Quote:

Al, I'm now confused, I thought you were a greenie after reading this thread.
I've even bought you a pair of sandals for Christmas.

No that was against tiny little women buzzing around in huge 4x4's who would never use them to tow or go offroad but think they are good protection for their little kids and sod everyone else who may only be able to afford to ferry their kids in a little Fiesta who would presumably come off far worse in a collision.

SWCRacing · 24 Nov 2009, 08:55 (Ref:2588284)

Unfortunately, as proved by Croft and other cases, there is not a defence of "moving to a nuisance".

However.....

Now you're getting it!!

Use the Law to our favour!! Join the Church of Motorsport!!

ascarmarshal · 24 Nov 2009, 09:22 (Ref:2588298)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfaholic

Motorsport as religion - how about a new Lord's prayer then...

Our Father, who art in Brands Hatch,
Birley be thy name.
Thy trophy come,
thy wins be done,
on Saturday as they are on Sunday
Give us this day our daily revs.
And forgive us our decibels,
as we forgive those who protest against us.
And lead us not into oblivion,
but deliver us from nimbys.
For thine is the (West) Kingsdown, the power and the glory. For ever and ever.
Vroom Vroom

Brillant

Has been passed on to the West Kingsdown Rector who likes a good laugh

Gerryc · 24 Nov 2009, 10:06 (Ref:2588320)

I kept these from a previous thread. They are not my own work - all credit to the original posters

We Marshals, who art on post
Hallowed be our deeds
Our yellows come, our will be done
On track, as it is in training.
Give us this day,a decent race
and forgive us our rude gestures,
as we shall forgive those who fail to wave to us.
Lead us not into reporting and
deliver us from the stewards enquiry.
For ours are the green bits, the gravel traps and the armco
for ever,until curfew
Amen

We the Marshals,
Who art on post
Hallowed be our deeds;
Your yellows come, do as you're told;
On track, as it is in training.
Give us this day,a decent race
And refraim from rude gestures,
As we shall forgive those who fail to wave to us.
Lead us not into rabbit holes
But instead towards toilets
For yours is the grey bit;
And don't you forget it;
For ever, til curfew
NOW RACE!!!

We drivers, now mainly skint
Hallowed be our entries
Our time on track, we all want back
at Brands, like it was at Lydden
Give us this day, the good scrutineer
And forgive us our small misdemeanours
as we shall forgive those who manhandle us over the bank.
For ours is the diving, the weaving and the shunting
For this week at least
Amen

diddy100 · 24 Nov 2009, 16:55 (Ref:2588518)

it also appears we have some people giving out the tel number of the local council environment health dept for people to ring as soon as they hear noise from Snet to complain - irrespective of the level - perhaps they should also ring the MOD and USAF with all the jets and Apache 'copters trying to knock the chimney pots of our houses and Network rail for noise of the local trains etc etc etc - isn't it great living in the countryside !