What do you think about Formula3?

[B2000V8]

Open question: Possible stepping stone? Are there any talented drivers at all?

[Suze]

Yes. Is a possible stepping stone. Has been proved as a possible stepping stone. Is a current stepping stone.

[jondownunder]

Of course there are talented drivers! Obviously some F3 championships are more competitive than others, and some seasons have a stronger field than others, but overall year-upon-year many excellent drivers pass through F3. Just look at the current F1 field - Fisichella, Montoya, M & R Schumacher, Trulli, Webber, Rosberg, Barrichello, Button, Coulthard, Klien, Heidfeld, Villeneuve, Monteiro, Albers, Liuzzi, Speed, Sato and Ide have all raced in an F3 series, most of them successfully. And numerous other talents have passed through without having the break to get into F1.

It's really a minority who didn't use F3 as a stepping stone towards F1 - of the current F1 field: Alonso (FNissan 2000 then F3000), Raikkonen (FRenault 2.0) and Massa (FRenault then F3000).

If you mean is F3 a possible stepping stone directly into F1, then with the current strength of GP2 and the alternative option of the Renault World Series, it's more likely drivers will continue their development in these before making the jump... especially considering there are so few F1 seats available. So recent F3 standouts like Lewis Hamilton, Adam Carroll, Alexandre Premat, Nicolas Lapierre, Nelson Piquet, Robbie Kerr, James Rossiter etc are all racing on the cusp of F1, just waiting for those rare opportunities to arise...

[Russfeld]

Its way too expensive.

[SALEEN S7R]

Formula 3 is a possible stepping stone yes, just not straight into F1 like it used to be 5-10 years ago. The category is however a good stepping stone to go straight into other series, GP2/WSBR/Champ car or even touring cars/sportscars for example, as has been shown with Euro F3 drivers switching to the DTM after sucess in Euro F3.

As has been said though, for what it is Formula 3 is far too expensive, the costs of running in Euro F3 are similar to that of a drive in the WSBR or even a drive in GP2, and once you compare the machinery, promotion, tv coverage etc it is clear that WSBR or GP2 is a better choice, if you can get a seat. IMO. The category does produce some very good drivers though, guys like Lewis Hamilton and Robbie Kerr for example, but these days its just another feeder series. IMO.

[peter briggs]

Budgets for Euro F3 and British F3 £300,000 to £400,000. British have 22 races 35 test days during season. GP2 budget £900,000 to £1,000,000 with 9 test days. F3 is the only series that gives drivers proper training not using controlled chassis and allows many miles winter testing. Drivers can also compete in International events at Zandvoort and Macau .
No contest.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by peter briggs

Budgets for Euro F3 and British F3 £300,000 to £400,000. British have 22 races 35 test days during season. GP2 budget £900,000 to £1,000,000 with 9 test days. F3 is the only series that gives drivers proper training not using controlled chassis and allows many miles winter testing. Drivers can also compete in International events at Zandvoort and Macau .
No contest.

Yes but in GP2 you are right under the F1 team bosses noses which is a very good thing if you are a good driver with a lot of promise. The fact that Scott Speed and Nico Rosberg have both made the jump into F1 after just 1 season of GP2 is proof of that. Also the GP2 cars are far closer to the performance of that of a Formula One car than a Formula 3 car would be. That wasnt the case a couple of years ago with F3000 cars but F3000 is dead and buried and GP2 is a major leap forward. You also get LIVE International TV coverage on Eurosport of GP2 as well as highlights packages on many terrestial channels across Europe. Where is Euro F3/British F3 etc shown on live TV?

Yes GP2 is more expensive, but its probably a lot easier to get sponsorship too due to the fact that the TV coverage is vastly superior to that of Formula 3 and that you are always guarnteed big crowds due to Formula One being on the same weekend. Sponsors obviously want to get into the public eye and IMO GP2 is one of the best series to do that, outside of F1 and Moto GP. With that in mind its probably not as hard as it sounds for drivers to get a ride in GP2/WSBR, particulary if you bring sponsorship.

Really, when you weight up all the good points and bad points of each category I think that it is clear GP2/WSBR is a better choice (if open to a driver) for a driver than Formula 3 these days and the grids for each category are reflecting this, for exmaple, a few years ago Euro F3 was getting what, 36 cars per race? Last year that was down to 25, incidently 2005 was the inugrual year of GP2 which was getting maxiumum capacity grid. Coincidence?

[ss_collins]

The costs in F3 are really out of control, yet it has the potential to be mega if they were reduced somehow. I'm going to look at ways money could be saved and also where its being wasted.

[flexible-flyer]

its too dear but it goes to show how highly it is regarded when the majority of the current f1 field spent time in it. as far as british f3 goes, i didnt see much talent of note in it last year. but 2003 and 2004 had masses of talent. euro f3 is where its at now.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by flexible-flyer

its too dear but it goes to show how highly it is regarded when the majority of the current f1 field spent time in it.

Yes thats true at the moment, but thats mainly due to the fact that GP2 is a very new series and is replacing a series that was nowhere near as good. In the years to come I think you will find more drivers coming through GP2 into F1 than you will see coming from F3 straight into F1.

Dont misunderstand me, I beleive Formula 3 is a important part of any drivers development and it is a good stepping stone into GP2/WSBR/Champ car. How many drivers in the last 5 years have made the leap from F3 straight into F1? Far less than the ammount that have made the jump from F3000/GP2 into Formula One I beleive.

Euro F3 front runner Rossiter is now in WSBR and so is ex British F3 champion Kerr. Last years Euro F3 champion Lewis Hamilton is now in GP2 as is 3rd placed Luca Di Grassi. Last years GP2 champion Rosberg is now in F1 and GP2 front runner Speed is now also in Formula One. Could this be a pattern for future years? I hope so, if so it potentially sets up a clear ladder structure for junior single seater racing instead of what we have had recently which has been very mixed. IMO.

[jondownunder]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

Last years GP2 champion Rosberg is now in F1 and GP2 front runner Speed is now also in Formula One. Could this be a pattern for future years? I hope so, if so it potentially sets up a clear ladder structure for junior single seater racing instead of what we have had recently which has been very mixed. IMO.

I agree, for too long F3000 was considered an irrelevance by many, with drivers like Raikkonen, Button, Sato and Burti skipping it on their route to F1. But now GP2 is where every aspiring F1 driver wants to be, and it's good that a precedent has been set by Rosberg and Speed. Though I'd still prefer to see a clear F3 - GP2 - F1 ladder, without the somewhat unnecessary World Series by Renault in between them and GP2. At least we don't have two series from the Renault/Nissan group any more as we did in 2003-2004.

[jondownunder]

Originally Posted by flexible-flyer

its as far as british f3 goes, i didnt see much talent of note in it last year. but 2003 and 2004 had masses of talent.

Agreed, 2005 wasn't a particularly good year for depth of talent, for the previously unremarkable Alvaro Parente to join late and dominate pretty much proved that.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by jondownunder

Though I'd still prefer to see a clear F3 - GP2 - F1 ladder, without the somewhat unnecessary World Series by Renault in between them and GP2. At least we don't have two series from the Renault/Nissan group any more as we did in 2003-2004.

I thought the same last year, but looking at the limited space available in GP2 at the moment the WSBR strikes me as a ideal sort of "proving ground" for aspiring GP2 drivers. The jump from a 270bhp Formula 3 car to a 620bhp GP2 car is a big one, a WSBR car has 450bhp and is basically the same sort of speed as a F3000 car was. If a driver does well in F3 and cant quite make it into GP2 for whatever reason then WSBR is probably a good option, let the driver race there for a season and get used to a more powerful single seater. If he/she does well he/she should hopefully be picked up by a GP2 team for the following season, if not then perhaps a career in touring cars or sportscars could follow.

[jondownunder]

Fair enough, I do partly think myself that WSR has a "raison d'etre" at the moment. Certainly this year the GP2 grid filled so quickly there were quite a few good drivers who have signed up to WSR as a second choice. It's just hard to rate who is F1 material when there is more than one series at a similar level, and I still view WSR and GP2 as occupying the same "slot" in the ladder previously taken exclusively by F3000, despite the differences in power.

[SALEEN S7R]

I see what you are saying, just personally I now think the 2 series are on differnt levels. Especially now because of the new changes for GP2, the differnce in lap times between the 2 series will be somewhere in the region of 5-6 seconds a lap. The same sort of differnce between WSBR and F3 lap times. The only other series I see on the same level as GP2 is Champ car and Formula Nippon, im basing my feelings on lap times and car power. Series like A1 I would put at the same level as the WSBR, on lap times they are closer to WSBR now than they will be to GP2 lap times, again, because of the changes to the GP2 cars, this wasnt the case in 2005 though, but now GP2 cars are around 3-4 secs a lap faster than last year.

[Russfeld]

You're really underselling the cost of F3, and way way overstating the cost of GP2.

[DanFlag]

Is'nt it the most successfull ladder series in Europe?

[strider]

The figures quoted are about right for Championship Class BF3 and would be 100k less for National Class.

But I don't see see F3 as being in competition with either GP2 or WSR. They come afterwards and it's good that they are there, otherwise there would be a huge log jam of drivers waiting for the chance to get break into F1. It's bad enough as it is. A1GP is another useful sidetrack.

[Russfeld]

About right? The Sennas admitted they spent 1million Euros on F3 last year. Thats basically 600quid. You could get a backfield GP2 drive for that.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Russfeld

Thats basically 600quid. You could get a backfield GP2 drive for that.

Really? I'm doubt that!

Seriously, I'm sure the Senna operation is a no expense spared one, but that's up to them. I still believe you could get a competitive drive for the figures previously mentioned.

[Russfeld]

600,000sterling is near to 1million Euros. GP2 isnt as expensive as you'd think.

[strider]

It wasn't your maths I was querying, just the figure you actually quoted originally. 600 quid wouldn't even get you a test!

There does seem to be quite a wide bracket for budgets, both in GP2 and F3, but, as I said earlier, I don't believe they are competing in the same market place.

[SALEEN S7R]

I think Russfeld meant £600,000 Foxy mole, not £600. £600 might, MIGHT buy you a GP2 tyre, but certainly not a ride.

[Suze]

might even buy you two?!

[climb]

Originally Posted by jondownunder

...

It's really a minority who didn't use F3 as a stepping stone towards F1 - of the current F1 field: Alonso (FNissan 2000 then F3000), Raikkonen (FRenault 2.0) and Massa (FRenault then F3000).

...

But it's interesting to note that Kimi, when creating a junior team for elerging drivers, opened up an F3 team, this must mean something I reckon.