1 lap makes it a race...or not!

[slicktoast]

I am probably wrong but I was under the impression that if there was a red flag before one completed lap, then a backup car was permitted. But if 1 lap was completed and then red flagged,it was officially a race and backup cars were NOT permitted to be used. Did this race start a new precedent? I'm not saying that the red flag shouldn't have be thrown etc. What is the actual rule on this and the use of backup cars from staging and up to and after 1 lap?
I know it's a moot point for today's race since both backup cars dnf'd but what about next time?

[EERO]

Both Villeneuve and Coulthard have been critical of the officials for stopping the race after the field had already run throughthe debris once. Given the length of the lap at the Hockenheimring, behind a pace car, that 2 1/2 minuted to sweep the track. Givewn that the races were not stopped in Italy and Australia after the deaths of marshalls, I find this all a little suspicious. Would the race have been stopped if Schumacher had not been involved?

[EERO]

Gee slick, we both post this thread within two minutes of each other, 12 hours after the race!!!

My understanding of the rule as described on Speedvision is that prior to the completion of the second lap, a red flag requires a restart.

[DNQ]

EERO, I too can't help but thinking if the red flag would have been shown had Michael Schumacher not been involved...

[Jozo]

Here's what the FIA rules say:

STOPPING A RACE
Article 156)
The procedure to be followed varies according to the number of laps completed by the race leader before the signal to stop the race was given :
Case A. Less than two full laps. If the race can be restarted, Article 157 will apply.

RESTARTING A RACE
157) Case A.
a) The original start shall be deemed null and void.
b) The length of the restarted race will be the full original race distance.
c) The drivers who are eligible to take part in the race shall be eligible for the restart either in their original car or in a spare car.


So, everything went by the rule book. Apart from that I do agree that the fact that Schumacher was involved influenced the decision to stop the race.

[Stephen Green]

Guys, I strongly disagree with your views on the red flag incident. I you watch the replay you will see that there was debris for at least 100 m,etres along the track. Carbon Fibre is extremely sharp and dangerous. It would have taken the marshals ages to have swept the track sufficiently well for there not to have been a problem with burst tires later in the race. If you look carefully you will see that when the cars went through the accident area, they went extremely slowly and did in many cases run over shards of carbon fibre.

Believe me, I am a marshal myself, stopping the race was the only, and safest thing to do. David Coulthard should think of his safety first and scynicism second. Safety is the prime concern in these cases.

Just as a last thought, even behind the safety car F1's are going quickly. Would YOU like to stand in the middle of the track sweeping while they zoom past you? I can assure you it's quite a scary prosect.

Stephen.

[ttc]

Originally posted by Stephen Green
Guys, I strongly disagree with your views on the red flag incident. I you watch the replay you will see that there was debris for at least 100 m,etres along the track. Carbon Fibre is extremely sharp and dangerous. It would have taken the marshals ages to have swept the track sufficiently well for there not to have been a problem with burst tires later in the race. If you look carefully you will see that when the cars went through the accident area, they went extremely slowly and did in many cases run over shards of carbon fibre.

Don't get yourself worked up over this, it's nothing more than TGF-conspiracy theoriests voicing their opinions.

It was the right thing to do. They first ran the SC and after determining that it was too large an area to clean up, did they decide to red-flag.

If the conspiracy theory was indeed true, it would have been red-flagged at the very first possible moment.

[Alan Jones]

AAHhhh, they had no choice. That track was a mess.

[angst]

I don't think they had any choice. The cars were trying to pick their way very, very slowly through a lot of carbon fibre debris. What would the view have been had somebody had a huge off because of a puncture? Much as I'm usually suspicious of moves that favour TGF, this was purely a safety issue and the right decision was made.

[Minardi fan]

Ok, ok, so as soon as the red flag came out I said it was only because TGF was involved. However, it did look like there was an awful lot of debris and it would have been dangerous not to stop the race.

[Liz]

This time it was necessary as Stephen says, because of the amount of debris and to give the marshalls time to get TGF's autograph.

[bella]

did anyone understand who was in who's car down at minardi? they certainly benefitted from that red flag thing.

it was the right choice at the right time. once they had seen everyone try and pick their way through the debris, and the marshalls had been quite rightly unable to clear a channel through it, they had no choice but to stop it.

[Stephen Green]

So Liz, you want me to get TGF's autograph for you at next years British GP if he happens to stop nearby? Actually, they did show him signing a marshals tabbard while he sat grinning like a cheshire cat at DC's blown engine. I see he also commandeered a marshals portable radio to listen to the race commentary. It's a good job it was in German! (chuckles to himself)

Stephen

[Gt_R]

Its silly for anyone to think that the red flag is anything but a wrong (or conspired) decision.

Look back at the Monza GP last year, after the race, many questioned (i dont quite remember if DC and JV had said anything about it) why the FIA did not stop the race, but instead chose to continue running it behind when there is soooo much debris on the road. The FiA came under heavy fire infact from many fans and teams. Some cynics even went to suggest that its probably because Michael is leading 1st.

Fast forward to Hockenheim. A huge crash, terrifying one for Burti, and debris all over the road. It is obvious the race had to be stopped. Can u imagine what it could do if one suffers a pucture at 350km/h just before the chicane with 3 or 4 cars braking in front of you???

The race was red flagged before the drivers complete one lap. the fact that cars actually ran over the debris already makes restarting even more needed, to change to clean tyres for safety reasons.

Or maybe...JV and DC should try losing control of their cars at 300km/h for a start... i dont expect much sense from these 2 anyway...

[Stephen Green]

GT-R

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. You suggest the red flag was the wrong decision and then go on to say they did the right thing? The race was actually red flagged on lap 2 not lap 1 as you suggest.

The huge difference between the accident at Monza and that at Hockenheim is the volume of debris on the track and the liklihood that if left, it would have caused another serious accident like the Burti/Schumacher one!

Stephen

[Gt_R]

Oh...sorry for any misunderstandings due to my poor phrasing...

My stand in a sentence:
The race-stoppage is the correct decision, be it MS or anybody else involved.

[Stephen Green]

Thanks for the reply. That's what I think too. Safety has to come first regardless of who the driver is.

[f1manoz]

Even being a non-TGF person, I have to say DC (who I also despise) should shut it. I'm sure he would have loved to have slashed a tyre and gone spinning into an armco barrier or concrete wall at over 200 km/h. NOT.

The decision to throw the red flag was the most sensible option, and common sense prevailed. Even though it gave TGF another shot, it didn't matter because he retired anyway (as did DC, so it made no change to his lost championship) so what all the fuss is about, I don't know?? :confused: Simply, the German officials should be applauded as they might have known they would received this sort of criticism.

The words of the day: common sense prevailing

DC is starting to regain the whinging thing he used to do. Just when you thought he'd let his driving do the talking, he's starting to talk again, and when he does that, bad things start to happen!

[Adam43]

The race should have been stopped, let everyone check their tyres and change them if required. Clearly a sudden puncture at 200mph is not a good thing.

I think there was no alternative but to stop the race.

With regard to previous safety car situations I feel that a lot of these would also have been better dealt with by stopping the race. Monza last year for the same reason and also Austria this year to name but two.

As the safety car picks the F1 cars up after the first corner on the second lap then if there are stalled cars on the grid the race should be stopped if they can't be moved far enough out of the way.

Clearly stopping the race is a last resort due to TV.

As this is the case and presumably it won't change then why not have another safety car which can come out on to the track half way round the lap and hence bring the cars under control before they pick their way throught the danger.

[Don K]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
Why not have another safety car which can come out on to the track half way round the lap and hence bring the cars under control before they pick their way throught the danger?

Stephen Green has already explained that earlier in this thread: "Would YOU like to stand in the middle of the track sweeping while they zoom past you?"

[Adam43]

That particular example was for stranded cars on the track. I don't think the cars should be driving over bits of carbon fibre at any speed. When the safety car actually comes past with the train of cars the mashalls could be well out of the way.

In most cases I disagree with the use of the safety car. I also find aggregate races quite entertaining (Japan 94) and didn't have a problem with them being TV unfriendly or confusing.

[Stephen Green]

To be honest Adam I suspect that by the time the Clerk of the Course has had time to consult Charlie Whiting (the Race Director) the cars are already over half way round the first lap. The normal instructions would be to put the safety car on standby, then consult the FIA guys, hence the delay. However I think your idea is a good one.

I can tell you that when you are working on the track, in many cases the drivers do not slow down enough for what I consider to be safe removal of debris from the track. There's no point in being a dead hero in my book. I always think twice before sending my marshals trackside for anything.

You may be interested to know that we are taught:
1. Our safety is paramount
2. The drivers safety
3. The car's safety

That's the way it should be I believe.

Stephen.

[Craig]

A very good point, Stephen. Last year we were stood at Dingle Dell when James Thompson had a big off and went backwards over the tyre barrier, demolishing a TV camera and throwing debris onto the track. Despite yellow flags being waved like mad to warn the oncoming traffic, the marshalls on-track were put in danger for several laps as Yvan Muller continued to go through there at full pelt trying to make up time after a stop/go penalty - not saying it's always the case, but it does make you realise what danger the marshalls put themselves in by venturing onto a live race track...

[Stephen Green]

Unfortunately Craig that is more common than not these days. As Observers (the guy in charge of the marshals post) we report incidents like that to race control but very rarely does anything get done about it. Funnily enough it is the 'club' racers that obey the yellow flags the best. Gus like the Sports 2000's, Caterhams etc etc, all have good race craft.

Regards,

Stephen

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/themarshalsclub

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Stephen Green
To be honest Adam I suspect that by the time the Clerk of the
You may be interested to know that we are taught:
1. Our safety is paramount
2. The drivers safety
3. The car's safety

That's the way it should be I believe.

Stephen.

Definetly. I just think that, at the end of the day, the FIA have a slightly different list.

1. TV
2. Marshal safety is paramount
3. The drivers safety
4. The car's safety

OK that may be a bit harsh, but you have to admit that some of the things that they do comprimises one or more of the above.

I have just started out on my first year of motor racing and although I have not needed the assistence of a marshal yet I and all the other drivers are extremely grateful to the marshals for everyhting they do.

It is so blatently obvious that people can't go racing without them.

Legends.