IRL comment, anyone want to differ?

[BootsOntheSide]

First of all, this is NOT a flame-bait. I want to get some serious CART v IRL debate going, by seeing what IRL fans make of these observations about their series:

1 Oval only means less driver and team skill is required

2 The low safety record, especially with back injuries, is shambolic and in need of real action

3 The teams who have come in from CART have almost blitzed the small teams for whom IRL was founded- both Penskes,t he Mo Nunn car and the Ganassi car (both the latter for drivers who've only been borderline Top 10 before, tho Giaffone was an impressive rookie) completing the series top 5, with only the precocious Sam Hornish Jr holding them off.

4 The same situation has happened with drivers- originally the series was envisaged as being for American drivers with no hope of attaining finance to race anything else, but now the grid has lots of Brazillians, an Englishman, and lots more

5 The actual standard of a lot of the veterans (eg Boat, the Laziers, Cheever, Buhl) isn't that high, as newcomers almost immediately outpace them. Look at Meira, Renna and Wheldon, who've come in midseason and outpaced these established names, as well as De Ferran, Castro Neves and Barron for example, who had to learn the cars.

6 The Indy 500 has been CART-dominated for the past 3 years, suggesting who has the bigger talent. The IRL drivers are mainly CART dropouts or guys who've come over form Europe looking for a career, excluding a few at the top.

[Russfeld]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide


1 Oval only means less driver and team skill is required

hmm Less 'skill' in driving technique, but you definately need racecraft. If anything more team skill is required because its all about getting your car finely tuned on setup and pitstops. So ovals are much more about the team as a whole

3 The teams who have come in from CART have almost blitzed the small teams for whom IRL was founded-

4 The same situation has happened with drivers- originally the series was envisaged as being for American drivers with no hope of attaining finance to race anything else..

Thats not why the IRL was founded. The IRL was founded because Tony (and the family) wanted to control IMS and show CART they were the ones in charge and also partly because of some rather nasty comments about his mum. "The Vision" as its called was just PR to rally the Indy500 faithful around the new series.

[Sato san]

some good points there Boots .

i would say , Oval racing needs a lot of skill AND probally more bravery the some circuit races....

the low saftey record is something that needs looking at

The IRL was very poor in its early days , but now it has more talented drivers in it , it is really showing its worth .

It provides great racing and i am becoming a big fan .

Oh , and it is possible to be able to enjoy Cart and the IRL both at the same time .

[Russfeld]

And a thumbs up to you sir. Im getting tired of the race nazis here in North America who think a team or driver's prior results dont matter just because they go to one league or the other

[Jordi]

"race nazis"... Russfeld, slow down.

[camcartfan]

Boots- I can't see one single flaw in your post!

[macdaddy]

Nor can I. Other than maybe the part about less team skill.

[Down F0rce]

IRL = GREAT oval racing
CART = GREAT road racing

what more needs to be said? its like Paul Cherry said- the IRL vs. CART war is OVER (but not if your one of a few sad and bitter ten tenths users tho > ) i think they are both great. now, if they would just both come to knockhill.....:P

[Flatspot]

Boots, I am entirely with your post. I do beleive that it takes a great deal of skill to set up the IRL cars for ovals however, I beleive it takes a significantly greater amount of skill to do ovals, road courses, and streets. The guys in the pits have to be perfect in any type of racing to be competative. Photo finishes are not produced through racecraft, coming out of nowhere for the win... now that's racecraft.

[racer69]

IRL & CART - Both bloody good racing.

On Ovals - driving around an oval requires a great deal of skill, it's like doing 130R at Suzuka 4 times each lap, and requires great skill in setting the car up, cos if your setup is wrong, you are no where.

[BootsOntheSide]

Firstly, I'd like to reclarify my first point. I meant that a series with ovals ONLY requires less drvier and team skill than a series with both road and oval racing.

But of course, if the IRL carries on providing these kinds of thrilling photo finishes and chaotic duelling of the last 2 rounds, it can count me as a fan.

[Chris Gray]

Personally, I prefer the diversity of the CART series, although the IRL has turned out some VERY close races in the last few weeks. But, I do agree with pretty much everything that Boots said.

[shiny side up!]

Hey racer69, that 130R comment was great! Actually, it may be amended to 'doing 130R at Suzuka with concrete walls on the outside of the corner...!'

I don't really understand all the discussion over oval vs. street racing. They are entirely different disciplines. One does not HAVE to be proven better, tougher, more competitive than the other. Enjoy them both! Since IRL and CART have kind of segregated into an oval series and a road-course series, the same logic applies in that situation. Enjoy them both! If you hate ovals or twisties, watch the other series!

As for safety in the IRL, I agree that something needs to be done to improve it (and hope it is). However, I think the injuries are due to the nature of the crash... if you back an F1 car into a concrete wall at 150MPH, you are still going to see back injuries. I don't think its a case of IRL cars being overly unsafe, but something clearly should be done...

[jondownunder]

Originally posted by Sato san
Oh , and it is possible to be able to enjoy Cart and the IRL both at the same time .

Excellent point!

If people are bitter about IRL taking teams away from CART, don't blame the IRL for it's own success! I'd prefer it if there was still only one series, but now that won't be happening. Let's just hope CART focuses on its strengths and manages to maintain numbers through this hard period, while the IRL seems to be going from strength to strength with Penske, Ganassi, Andretti-Green and Haas there next year (although may lose some small teams due to bigger engine costs).

I now love both series, and there's no point deliberately ignoring the IRL when it clearly produces regularly great entertainment... and now has quality at the front to give it some real significance.

Sorry... I'm not really answering any of your questions Bootsontheside!

[Brettwp]

The IRL/CART "war" has and will continue to change both sides like rubbing two rock against each other. CART is desperately trying to cut costs to keep less funded teams, and the IRL has had an infusion of both talent and $$$. CART never has stayed the same, and I suspect that the IRL will continue to evolve to capture more fans and sponsors.

[Benny Boy]

The real fact on the IRL - Cart debate is that for the past two seasons the IRL has been so much better than cart. I have NEVER seen such exciting racing in my life. Look how close those finishes have been - running so close at up to 220mph. CART cannot beat that, and if you look at their 2003 schedule you'l see less ovals, so it seem pretty obvious they know this too.

I dont want to slag off CART as they do organise great spectator events and the Cosworth turbo format will really enhance the number of teams and competitiveness for next year, but i think cart should stick to street and track events and leave the ovals to IRL. why try and beat the other when they can just stick to their own niches and both enjoy success?

[Down F0rce]

Originally posted by Benny Boy
The real fact on the IRL - Cart debate is that for the past two seasons the IRL has been so much better than cart. I have NEVER seen such exciting racing in my life. Look how close those finishes have been - running so close at up to 220mph. CART cannot beat that, and if you look at their 2003 schedule you'l see less ovals, so it seem pretty obvious they know this too.

I dont want to slag off CART as they do organise great spectator events and the Cosworth turbo format will really enhance the number of teams and competitiveness for next year, but i think cart should stick to street and track events and leave the ovals to IRL. why try and beat the other when they can just stick to their own niches and both enjoy success?

EXACTLY.

mind u, i am starting to prefer the IRL. the only thing keeping the IRL from being the success it should be are a lot of fans who are too busy looking at the past. the IRL is the furure of Open Wheel Racing, whether they like it or not.

[Brettwp]

There has been a war between CART teams them selves to spend more to go faster and faster. The end result was that a motor lease was about a quarter of a million while speeds escalated to a point where it was unsafe with no end in site. Wing changes made the cars somewhat slower, but costs continued to escalate. Simple economics is that this could not continue indefinitely. The IRL is going a few MPH slower, but at a MUCH reduced cost. It was bound to happen no matter what.

Now myself, I like to see innovation. Although I still watch CART/IRL, I have become a big fan of the ALMS.

[slicktoast]

Within a few years irl will become the CART of the past few years and all this mess will start again. The original stated intent has already close to evaporated.

[The Snout]

Now that the IRL has the Team Owners who were causing all the trouble in Cart the IRL's days are numbered. Perhaps 5 years, perhaps more, but bucks going to be spent to be competitive and lack of fan numbers have the IRL on the ropes.

[brightline]

With the new engine leases and big $$$ how soon do you think it will be before we see Toyota and Honda lobbying to can the rev limiter?????

[macdaddy]

Tony's dream of an "American" series with "American" drivers...

Firstly, they're going to Motegi.

Then, let's take a look at the grid...

1) Helio Castroneves - Brazil
2) Gil de Ferran - Brazil
3) Tony Kanaan - Brazil
4) Vitor Meira - Brazil
5) Airton Dare - Brazil
6) Felipe Giaffone - Brazil
7) Raul Boesel - Brazil
8) Dario Franchitti - Scotland
9) Hideki Noda - Japan
10) Shinji Nakano - Japan
11) Arie Luyendyk - Holland
12) Eliseo Salazar - Chile
13) Tomas Scheckter - S.Africa
14) Laurent Redon - France

...That's half the starting grid.

[robby29]

I take exception to the safety comment. The only driver killed in IRL competition was Scott Brayton and that was in "96 when the IRL was using CART spec cars. Since then, Jeff Krosnof, a Latin driver whose name I can't remember, and Greg Moore have all been killed in CART races.

Oval track racing may have an inherently higher risk of injury, but the IRL's safety record is very good. Each generation of chassis have seen a large improvement in crash worthiness and the IRL pioneered the SAFER barrier system.

Furthermore, unlike CART, the IRL never races at a new facility without adequate testing.

[robby29]

Drivers are busier in road racing with more turns, braking, shifting, etc. but that doesn't mean that it requires more skill than oval track racing. There is only one good line around a road course and everyone knows where it is. Passing is simply a matter of positioning yourself so that the other driver has to concede "the line" to you.

In oval track racing, there are many different lines that will work. Passing is more a matter of getting through the same corner, albeit on a different line, faster than the driver you are passing, and/or making a better decision on how to handle traffic.

I suggest that it takes more skill to drive a racecar through the turns, than down the straightaways. Road courses have more turns, but oval track racers spend a great deal more time actually turning.

To suggest that oval track racing requires less skill than road racing is to display a woeful ignorance of auto racing.

[Jordi]

Originally posted by robby29
I take exception to the safety comment. The only driver killed in IRL competition was Scott Brayton and that was in "96 when the IRL was using CART spec cars. Since then, Jeff Krosnof, a Latin driver whose name I can't remember, and Greg Moore have all been killed in CART races.

Oval track racing may have an inherently higher risk of injury, but the IRL's safety record is very good. Each generation of chassis have seen a large improvement in crash worthiness and the IRL pioneered the SAFER barrier system.

Furthermore, unlike CART, the IRL never races at a new facility without adequate testing.

The latin driver was Gonzalo Rodriguez.

Greg's accident could also have happened at any IRL race. No car in the world would have withstood the 154 G's of the massive crash.

What is alarming is the number of vertebra-related injuries happening in this year. For a series that has been racing on ovals for 5 years now with their own chassis, that's not very good. You'd expect they'd know what was needed in their chassis. I hope no more drivers will be injured next year.