Open Wheel Division on the Forum

[JohnSSC]

As some of you may know, I am a regular poster in the IRL and Champ Car Forums and a not-so-regular poster in F1.

Recently I have found myself told by other posters that I "belong over there" (meaning the IRL forum). I am neither trolling nor trying to (intentionally) annoy anyone, simply discussing open wheel racing here in America.

This is becoming increasingly difficult as the Forum is segregated. This I believe has engendered a dilution in the quality of the discussion.

For example, Paul Newman, a principal in Newman/Haas Racing appeared on an interview program. A thread was started in Champ Car. Since this same team currently has a car at Indy (in the "other" series) there was obvious interest in the thread for fans of both series. I, and others have been told in the thread to basically take that part of the discussion (relating to Indy) "over there."

This is getting silly. As I noted in that thread what this tells me is that we must essentially divide up the interview and then discuss it's component parts in the "correct" Forum with no option to discuss the whole thing.

Now, I know there were difficulties with attitudes that caused this split in the first place, but isn't that what the Forum FAQs are supposed to govern? It would be like telling an F1 Forum contributor that they cannot post anything mentioning JJ Lehto since he now races sports cars. Or not being able to discuss the proposed F1 rival series since it is not the current iteration.

Sorry for the length of this, but I am really open to discussing this other than via PMs, but certainly not in a way that would disrupt the IRL or Champ Car Forums.

This split is not very workable for someone like myself who likes open wheel racing and really does not car to pigeon-hole people based on their preference for one series or another.

Thank you for providing this Forum as an opportunity to discuss this issue.

[Tim Northcutt]

I'm glad that you have provided this option for us JohnSCC...

The only question I have in this regard is:

Who wants to wear the suit of armor as a moderator for such a forum???

You and I both know that emotions run very high when it comes to open-wheel racing (esp. OWRS & IRL)...and someone will have to moderate in some fashion or it will be a "free for all"...

I agree that the issues need to be discussed...and thee should be a place for it....

Right here is a great start....

Let's just hope that people will be civil about it....

Because they haven't been so civil in those two Forums....

Really its one Forum...the other one doesn't seem to mind...but that's another issue unto itself...

But I do welcome this type of discussion...thansk for starting this off for us...

I appreciate it...

[JohnSSC]

Tim:

As usual you have a well-reasoned post to start the discussion. That is exactly what I want here: a reasonaed and reasonable discussion of what should be one Forum.

I can honestly say that I have rarely, if ever, had the same sorts of comments directed to me when posting in the IRL Forum as I do (and have observed with others) in the CC Forum.

The shame of it is that someone would almost need a "suit of armor" to moderate a unified Forum. To be honest, I am sorry that is the case. The "zealousy" if you will that surrounds the feelings of some for one series over the other prevents an open discussion. I am not an expert but there is an anger about the situation that is completely misplaced. The Forum has been forced to micro-manage the discussion to the point where we have two thinly-populated Forums instead of one thriving Forum - not unlike Sprtscars and GT. The similarity with the current state of both open wheel series here is striking. Neither series commands a clear popularity advantage: one has better TV, the other better live attendance.

My plea is for Forum members to put away the anger, drop the us vs them and celebrate the similarities!

[Peter Mallett]

You could take it to National and International Single Seaters. Then Bella would have the problem.

*Walks off patting himself on back*. That's sorted then.

[garcon]

zealousness. I think...

I'm not particularly a fan of either IRL or Cart, and I have only a rudimentary understanding of the situation surrounding their split (and I have no clue as to why it appears to be so acrimonious). It's not that I dislike CART and/or IRL, you understand, just that being from this side of the pond I tend to follow other series.

All of which puts me (in some respects) in a pretty good position. To peer over the fence, if you like, and share what I see.

As an argument against combining the forums; purely from a logistical/clarity point of view, once we're into mid-season for both CART and IRL it may become confusing when threads are opened about particular races, results, incidents etc. that relate specifically to one series or the other. For that reason, I can see the logic in having them split.

However, when there is clearly general discussion that involves both series, I too can see the sense in a combined forum, where the views from both camps can be discussed, where comparisons can be made between drivers (for instance), and hopefully were common ground can be struck between protagonists - we're all joined by our common love of motorsport after all. Who knows, maybe 10tenths could help broker a new détente leading to a single US open wheel series?!

Maybe the ultimate compromise would be an additional forum, aimed at general open-wheel discussion - where we can discuss in wider terms a variety of subjects that could have relevance to IRL, CART, F1 and the various open wheel feeder formulae. Or perhaps that's a little overboard... how many different forums do we need?

Just some thoughts I guess, rather than any particular direction. But I echo John's sentiments - that people try to put away the anger, perhaps look at things from a different perspective, and celebrate our mutual petrolhead status!

[JohnSSC]

Peter, I would be careful as Bella is now likely concealed somewhere waiting to explain her position using Wrex's bat...

Seriously, would that resolve the problem? On the surface one could say there is no need for the F1 Forum as the Single Seater Forum (by broad definition) also fits the bill.

My question would then be if you (the 10-Tenths Team) left the IRL/CC Forums open and some of us moved to a more tolerant Forum, wouldn't that further dilute the conversation?

I think that IRL/CC is large enough (barely) to rate its own Forum rather than be merged into another.

[JohnSSC]

Thanks Garcon - I liked the detente reference. Who would have thought 30 years ago that the Communist Bloc would ever be a thing of the past, and now you can buy pieces of the Berlin Wall in stores.

Perhaps this could be the start of such a thing here. It sure would be great to discuss some drivers and events, past and present, without trying to remember which Forum to post it in. It would be greater still if the zealousness could be toned down in light of us all being "petrolheads" to varying degrees.

[mountainstar]

To me split topics should mostly remain in their own threads. I don't think it's appropriate to discuss irl topics in champcar threads and likewise the opposite. It's no different than if I was blatting on about V8 Supercars in irl threads or whatever.

I think the "end" is coming sooner than most think. Pole Day barely had 2000-3000 people at best compared to 200,000+ in the early 1990's.

[Peter Mallett]

*Puts serious head on*.

John,

The point is that for whatever reason, the two codes don't appear to want to co exist. Don't ask me why because they seem the same to my eyes.

I suggested the single seater form for that topic only. Its neutral ground and the moderators may (probably) not have a vested interest. It can always be copied or even moved when the debate finds its own level.

You may always move to a "more tolerant" forum of course. However bear in mind that the only reason for the division was the lack of tolerance displayed by the posters who presumably would also go to your "more tolerant" forum.

Finally you could always open your own discussion forum and find out first hand how difficult it can be to run these things.

So, apart from offering some friendly advice albeit with a poor attempt at humour, I don't see an answer to your problem.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
I don't see an answer to your problem.

Me neither, but I think we have close to the best situation at present.

However, JohnSSC, I share your frustration.

Time will pass the series will change and no doubt ten-tenths will change with it...

[macdaddy]

I wish that I could come up with a few suggestions, but I cannot.
Reuniting the two forums is, IMO, out-of-the-question. There's simply no suit-of-armour strong enough!

The attitudes that permeate each forum are distinctly different. The IRL board seems to be quite alot more civil. Factions of the CC board seem quick to label anyone who criticizes the series as a troll. I don't agree with it, but I don't know how to change it. People who say things that others don't want to hear are instantly labelled "D&G'ers", whereas I think of them as "realists". Just so long as a member doesn't continually and constantly remind everybody of shortfalls, the topics are often quite worthy of discussion. There is a very real (hatred?) in the air, one directed at Tony George, and it rears its ugly head in various forms quite often. How can we change this? Therein lies the big question. It's difficult, if not impossible, to change the overall atmosphere, short of downright censorship! And that would produce even worse conditions!

People just refuse to get along. Sort of a microcosm of the world in general.

I very much look forward to how this thread develops. And I applaud John for bringing it up here in the Feedback forum, a very public gallery.

[JohnSSC]

Peter, I neither presume nor imply that it would be easy to reunite the two or moderate the thing afterwards. I have noted many times in both the IRL and CC Forums (which macdaddy can attest to) that I find this Forum to be the best run and most civilzed of those I have visited which is why I choose to spend the little spare time I have here.

Macdaddy hit the nail on the head: there is within CC particularly a minority who respond to any opinion not fully supporting their own in a very visceral way. There is a rapid and immediate negative reaction that I find to be very personal in nature and very much attacking the poster by portraying same as a "Doom and Gloomer" or "The Greek Chorus" simply because one may be analyzing what OWRS is doing or proposes to do and having an opinion that may not be 100% behind the idea.

As an example, one cannot even mention Michael Andretti and his record in CART. He has the most career wins and has lead the most laps (by a factor of 2) over his nearest competitor. Why can I not mention him? Because he now owns an IRL team! I have been told straight out if I wish to discuss him at all it should be done in the IRL forum. So rather than be able to compare the current champion to a past champion for example, I feel compelled to defend my choice to discuss a former competitor in CART in a Champ Car Forum instead of the IRL Forum!

Now I suppose I could cruise to "Other Single Seaters" but likely I would have to PM everyone to tell them I started a thread there about a CART driver whose name I cannot mention in the CC Forum! Now do you see where I am coming from? If the split must be than so be it, but could there be some room to discuss past and present as well?

Even trying to operate within the "Rules" (whatever they are) is limiting the conversation.

I like 10 Tenths a lot. I have made friends here. People I enjoy corresponding with both on and off the boards. I don't want to or feel I should have to leave simply because I might want to say "Penske" or "Andretti" in the CC Forum.

[JohnSSC]

Yes and by the way I think macdaddy does yeoman's work on that Forum - it would be far worse without him there that is for sure!

I appreciate his effort and the fact that 10ths has this particular Forum for us to air things out without causing pandemonium on the Boards.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by macdaddy
I very much look forward to how this thread develops.

[Down F0rce]

I agree with Macdaddy here - the forums should remain seperate.

Howerver, there will always be some cross-over threads, such as Newman/Hass racing at Indy or Helemgarn moving to ChampCars - these kind of threads are inevitable.

At the end of the day, I think it's up to the members. Do they want to ruin the atmosphere by trying to tell other members where to go? Or have a nice, freindly atmosphere where we can all just sit down and talk about racing.

Here at TT, we can provide a place for discussion - the quality of the discussion, is up to the members.

[macdaddy]

Perhaps I, too, am quilty. I must admit that I hold ill-feelings toward Tony George. I'm only human, I have my reasoning. I must also admit that I've coined a personal phrase for Michael Andretti in "MGF" (Mario's Grandson's Father). I do, however, strive to be fair and impartial, never derrogatory. Perhaps I'm one of a select few that has never used the word "traitor"! Posts referring to MGF's past CART accomplishments are welcomed on the CC board (as far as I'm concerned), but perhaps not those about his current endeavours. For obvious reasons.

There was a recent thread about the demise of Nazareth Speedway. It was suggested that even this topic be moved to the IRL board! In so many situations, crossover is inevitable and people just have to learn to live with it.

I'm rambling now.

[macdaddy]

Having just read DF's simultaneous post, I want to echo his last statement.

"Here at TT, we can provide a place for discussion - the quality of the discussion, is up to the members."

I should also like to give both he and marcus the greatest of kudos for keeping the IRL forum so pleasant.

[Liz]

I think the two fora should be separate. The original reason for separating them was the number of people wanting to dance on CART's grave and jeer at us when we were upset and angry at those who deserted and then behaved abominably toward the series where they had made their names and fortunes.

The only answer is the same one that the social workers and the scientists propose -- that you merely wait until the generation that remembers the injustices are all gone, and then you remake the world to your liking. Meanwhile, telling us to "get over it" however kindly meant will do no good at all. No we "can't all get along." This ain't Stepford.

And that's the name of that tune.

[marcus]

well what can I say.

John a very beautifully written post as usual and im still trying to digest this whole thread.

This is becoming increasingly difficult as the Forum is segregated. This I believe has engendered a dilution in the quality of the discussion.

Im not sure if I agree with this but then it just may be the case , I feel on the Indycar side at least things have moved forward and the quality of discussion has improved and continues to improve all the time.
On the CART side of things there has always been interesting discussions in there but of course lately there has been alot of doom and gloom and for good reason as we nearly lost this gem of a series , hopefully in time the series will revive and the good quality discussion will return.

This split is not very workable for someone like myself who likes open wheel racing and really does not care to pigeon-hole people based on their preference for one series or another.

Im sorry you feel that way John but really at the time there was no other option , neither side (and I hate calling it sides!!) wanted to give an inch it was a case of "We are right and you are wrong" syndrome by both parties so the splitting of the two forums had to happen.

As an example, one cannot even mention Michael Andretti and his record in CART. He has the most career wins and has lead the most laps (by a factor of 2) over his nearest competitor. Why can I not mention him? Because he now owns an IRL team! I have been told straight out if I wish to discuss him at all it should be done in the IRL forum. So rather than be able to compare the current champion to a past champion for example, I feel compelled to defend my choice to discuss a former competitor in CART in a Champ Car Forum instead of the IRL Forum!

Umm well were you told by a moderator ?

if so then that moderator needs a stern talking too (Im borrowing Wrex's bat if thats the case)

This is very simple , lets Take Michael Andretti if you wanna discuss his efforts when he was in CART then by all means discuss it in the CART forum , if you want to discuss his Indycar team then discuss it in the Indycar forum , if you want to discuss his Formula one season , then discuss it in the F1 forum or the historic forum , it is as simple as that and there should be no problems with it.

You will of course get the occassional gripe from some one and if you feel you are being unfairly dealt with by another poster then feel free to contact either a moderator or an admin (by using the warn button or PM) explaining your point. The outcome of this will be dealt with in the best way possible and if another poster has got it wrong they will be told so by the appropriate manner and moderator.

At the end of the day, I think it's up to the members. Do they want to ruin the atmosphere by trying to tell other members where to go? Or have a nice, freindly atmosphere where we can all just sit down and talk about racing.

Your a legend Downforce

that is simply it , dont let a few bad happenings deter you from enjoying this place , we are constantly trying to make this place better for everyone concerned and I think since the split this have been better and basically until OWRS and Tony george sit down and try to sort the situation out and there is some possibility of re-uniting the two series then you will always have people taking sides and therefore in the interest of management and patrons alike there will be two forums.




Simply put I believe at this point in time the forums should remain seperate , i think the Indycar forum is working excellently and the OWRS forum is also going along very well.

People will always clash heads , lets look at if TG and OWRS sat down today and decided to join forces and everything worked out great for everyone.

hang on , here comes Mr (or Mrs) negative to put a bad spin on the situation "TG is waiting for a weak moment and then he is gonna snatch it all off everybody" or OWRS are just not strong enough on their own they need a decent series to prop them up"

see what I mean , there will always be someone negative coming along causing a rucuss (sp?)

but for now I think we should keep them seperate and work on each forum individually and make them better for the patrons that want to be in that forum and not feel like they are being pushed out.

Just my thoughts on things at the moment , ive just finished night shift and am very tired so i hope all that made some sense.

CHEERS
Marcus

[JohnSSC]

First I want to thank everyone for the positive comments, whether about this thread or my writing style (blush).

At the risk of appearing to attack a poster rather than a post, I will say that Liz's post provides a remarkable counterbalance in that it (if I read it correctly) is an attempt to justify current actions by some forum members based on past actions by other Forum members who like as not do not even show up there anymore.

All of the positive, straightforward comments - particularly by the mods - are in a sense swept into the background by this shall I say rather dramatic justification for why some Forum members (and not the mods nor the majority of those who post in both Forums) feel that they should "set the tone" for the terms and the conditions of the discussion.

Again I apologize if this seems personal, but the manner in which the post is written certainly takes a swipe at me and certainly lets me know in no uncertain terms that my type of subject matter is most unwelcome.

I am not a mod, nor do I want to be one (way too little patience!), but this is where I believe someone should step in and say: "Look, you want to talk about the subject at hand, then talk about it. If you don't, go on to another thread." I do not post in every thread I read, nor even all the ones I find interesting. However, I should not be made to pay for the behavior of others that has been deemed "abominable" by another Forum member.

No offense, but that should be in Parc Ferme under the title: "Things that I am still mad about."

Please let ALL of us participate - this is not and should not be a private club.

[marcus]

I think the two fora should be separate. The original reason for separating them was the number of people wanting to dance on CART's grave and jeer at us when we were upset and angry at those who deserted and then behaved abominably toward the series where they had made their names and fortunes.

that is not entirely true Liz but i wont go into any debate about this with you either here or any other place.

[Wrex]

Originally posted by JohnSSC
No offense, but that should be in Parc Ferme under the title: "Things that I am still mad about."

Oh no you dont, I dont want that in Parc Ferme

A good thread John, I will digest a little more before commenting further though.

[GP Racer]

I visited many other forums, before I decided to spend my time here at TT, and I can honestly say, that ALL of the CART forums no matter where they are, seem to be the same, only worse.

I must say that I have never seen fans of any other series, or sport for that matter, that was so dedicated to there series. But that dedication often goes over-the-top, and stifles any criticism or open discussion that normally occcurs on sports or racing forums. The attitudes shown by many CART fans will do nothing to help bring in new fans, and quite honestly, it has chased away quite a few old fans, like myself and others that I know. I still scroll through there every once in awhile, and I can see many of the old names are gone, as I'm sure they no longer feel welcome. I don't know whether to be in awe of their dedication or in bewilderment of it. Macdaddy, don't get down on yourself, because I think you have the toughest, if not the most impossible, job here.

I've found a totally opposite attitude on the IRL forum. Over there, all opinions seem to be welcome, both good and bad. The folks there seem to be race fans, not just IRL fans, and they are easily able to discuss anything about open wheel racing, even the "other series", without being labelled, or shoehorned into a corner. I like the positive energy there.

John, its a shame things are the way they are, but I along with the others here, don't see an easy answer. For me, I could no longer be fans of both, so I weighed the pros and cons of both and decided to go with the IndyCar series. There is a positive buzz about this series, that I find fulfilling, unlike the negative ones that permeate the other. This was my personal way to "forum" happiness!

PS-To all the mods who make-up Ten-Tenths, great job! There is no other forum like it!

[JohnSSC]

I have found the same thing GP. I wish I could explain it!

And yes I agree that the IRL forum has a more open, free-wheeling discussion without the attendant psychological baggage that seems to haunt the CC forum.

It is a shame that many who used to post have left for greener pastures or are no longer interested in Forum-World.

Like Tim said in a thread: it is like apples and oranges, and I like the taste of both! I am doomed to want to post in both Forums.

[marcus]

I am in the same boat John , i love both series and even thought the series themselves seem to be at each others throats i just wish the fans could get along a bit better.

all we can do as moderators is call them as we see them and try and do the best job we can.

to which i must admit I will have to lift my game