Maseratis Future

[JAG]

http://www.sportscarpros.com/cottonb...rs/default.htm

Interesting article.

[JAG]

Agree with most of his points, except the one about diesal.

I think it'll be a few years yet before diesals are out on their own ahead of the petrol compeition, particualrly the new petrol direct injection turbos from AER and Cosworth.

By then, customer diesals should be on the market.

[Foster]

Interesting notes on the development of GT3. I knew the Trofeo had it's own spec class, it would seem like the natural progression into the GT3 market.

As for the diesel, not anytime soon. Maserati to me means winning, and I don't think that a diesel based P2 would be the best option to continue on witht the trident's traditions, at this point in time.

[JAG]

I said it 18 months ago, a Maserati LMP1 coupe using the engine/transmission of the MC12.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by Foster

Interesting notes on the development of GT3. I knew the Trofeo had it's own spec class, it would seem like the natural progression into the GT3 market.

As for the diesel, not anytime soon. Maserati to me means winning, and I don't think that a diesel based P2 would be the best option to continue on witht the trident's traditions, at this point in time.

Not saying a diesel Maserati P2: go gasoline and take on Porsche, and both will have a performace envelope that will be faster on track then the diesels of Audi and Peugeot, who will be running with far fewer stops, thus all aiming to beat one another at the finish line.

robert

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by JAG

Agree with most of his points, except the one about diesal.

I think it'll be a few years yet before diesals are out on their own ahead of the petrol compeition, particualrly the new petrol direct injection turbos from AER and Cosworth.

Except if ACO handicaps petrol cars.

[ger80]

isnt a far way from half LMP (MC12) car to a full LMP car

[panoz.lmp1]

Originally Posted by ger80

isnt a far way from half LMP (MC12) car to a full LMP car

I believe you never read a GT1 and a LMP1 regulation

[ger80]

i read it, but the MC12 doesnt fit into GT1
and if you develop a racecar and make a streetcar of it later, then there are not many differences in both regulations
MC12 doesnt look very different to some closed LMP renderings
Engine rules are not quite different if you use a car with maximum 6L
GT rules mostly say "you have not to change this from the streetcar to the racecar", but if develop the racecar first and build 25 "streetcars" from that one, you can realy do many things

[Dani Filth]

the MC12 is an Enzo ..which is not an LMP but a GT car . so MC12 is a GT .. right ??

[JAG]

Originally Posted by panoz.lmp1

I believe you never read a GT1 and a LMP1 regulation

But the major components could quite easilty be transfered over to a new purpose built LMP1 chassis.

[TheNewBob]

Wasn't there an MC12/Enzo argument on here ages ago? Something we've been through before. I'd hate to think GT1 was about to go under, so we really would need that Ferrari 600. Why wouldn't Mazza be able to compete in GT2? It said in that article it was because of the Ferrari 430, but the two companies are no longer related...

[Dani Filth]

as long as they are part of FIAT Spa .. they'll be related

[Foster]

Originally Posted by skycafe

Not saying a diesel Maserati P2: go gasoline and take on Porsche, and both will have a performace envelope that will be faster on track then the diesels of Audi and Peugeot, who will be running with far fewer stops, thus all aiming to beat one another at the finish line.

robert

I remember an article in LeMans & Sportscar Racer from the start of the 675 days. I believe that they said the 675 would someday beat the 900, well that turned out to be true, only after the cars were converted (Dyson's Lola's).

Now with the talk of LMP2 beating the LMP1 cars, this hash's a deja'vu of days gone past. Now I'am not saying the same thing will happen (knowledge has come in my older days), but I still have that little bug in the back of my head that says "hold on bessy!!!"

Now the question becomes...How close will a diesel LMP1 car be to an LMP2? I would only think a gas powered Maserati would have the "get up and go" that a more powerful LMP1 car would have, even if it is a diesel.

[HaraldB]

Originally Posted by Foster

I remember an article in LeMans & Sportscar Racer from the start of the 675 days. I believe that they said the 675 would someday beat the 900, well that turned out to be true, only after the cars were converted (Dyson's Lola's).

AFAIR it was the ACO's intention that 675 and 900 should both be contenders for overall victory.

LMP2 is meant as an outright "junior" class by the ACO, as far as I can see.

[skycafe]

If I understand the performance envelops they are headed toward, the Diesel LMP1 will have an advantage in economy. It will run farther per fuel tank and will spend less time in the pits, and they won't have the speed of gasoline or petrol LMP1, which will lose out in pit time. I think the objective then is over a race distance that they both, with maximum performance, would end up at the finish together. It seems like the P2's performance might be aimed at this level too.

The weird thing about this is, is the calculation consistant for a 1000 kilometer race as it would be for 24 hour race?

Of course, I may be totally wrong in my thinking, and given my track record....


robert

[Foster]

Hey, that works for me.The idea of speed, compensated by the time in the pits seems like the right idea.

Now with the ALMS "sprint" race, would a LMP2, like the one purposed by Maserati, be better for the overall win. IMO yes.

[JAG]

I've read the article again and I don't see were you get that a petrol LMP2 will be competing for overall wins.

As I read it he seems to be saying that diesal LMP1s will dominate overall, so we'll have to look at LMP2 for some (interclass) excitement.

This is were I disagree.

I can see a petrol LMP1 being very competitive with diesal LMP1s, especially if they use the new direct injection turbo engines.

The atmo engined brigade may have to improve economy or become uncompetitive.

[Foster]

Originally Posted by JAG

I've read the article again and I don't see were you get that a petrol LMP2 will be competing for overall wins.

As I read it he seems to be saying that diesal LMP1s will dominate overall, so we'll have to look at LMP2 for some (interclass) excitement.

This is were I disagree.

I can see a petrol LMP1 being very competitive with diesal LMP1s, especially if they use the new direct injection turbo engines.

The atmo engined brigade may have to improve economy or become uncompetitive.

The way I understood it, Audi, and Peugeot will dominate LMP1 with there diesels. The thing is, I don't think this will happen till atleast '08. By that time it will be a Audi diesel going for a win at Lemans.

This leaves some space were a gas powered LMP2 would be able to challenge for wins. I don't know of anybody jumping on the LMP1 band wagon, there are some, but not like they are in LMP2.

[JAG]

Having watched the LMES this year the hybrids have shown a clean pair of heals to the LMP2 Lolas and Courages.

A purpose built LMP1 should be quicker than a hybrid, just as the Lola P2 is quicker than the Courage hybrid P2.

Next year I expect to see the Dyson Lolas, and any other new reg cars, at the head of the timesheets, followed by any Zyteks, the top LMP2s, then restrcited LMP900s (if they are indeed going to be further restricted).

[skycafe]

I think speedwise, given what we have seen out of the new Lola's of Intersport and RML, and what we hear the Porsche is capable of, that they would outperform an LMP1 Diesel. The Diesel will apparently make up for it each time the LMP2 car pits, which then puts the Diesel into the lead to be chased. Maybe the P2 cars won't pull this off. I do wonder how the diesel P1 will compare to the petrol P1. One thing is for sure, it is going to be interesting!

I don't see diesels going over that well in ALMS. I hear diesel and hybrid cars have increased market share here and are expected to do so in the next decade, but only then will we approach what the rest of the world buys. I don't see Peugeot in ALMS aside from a trip to Sebring, which would only be qualifier for LeMans. So that leaves Audi. If the Audi's performance is race winning, and nobody else comes out to play, that probably isn't that great for ALMS--unless you have strong P2 and GT1 (of which we only can see good P2 in the cards now).

The other thing that makes me think they all have intersecting performance potential is that Penske is going into P2 with Porsche. Porsche I could see because it looks like a good market for them, but the Penske tie in just makes me think the bar is higher then a class win. The conjecture was that this is stepping stone to P1 program. Well, maybe, but the article points out that Porsche isn't sure petrol would win P1, they don't see themselves going diesel, and they want into sports car racing. All that leads me to believe that the Porsche has run against the Audi scenario in a computer simulation, and they think they can pull off the big prize.

Nothing short of wild conjecture on my part, nothing to back it up at all except uneducated hunches. Honestly, the whole thing fascinates the heck out of me.

robert

[jhansen]

How would a LMP1-diesel perform in the sprint races of the ALMS? Surely they would lose a lot of the fuel economy advantage over the quick petrol powered LMP1s and LMP2s.

Which leads me to believe you are on the right track Robert, and that Porsche have done their homework and have possibly found what you are suggesting.

[JAG]

Why would you think an Audi or Peugeot P1 diesal would not be the quickest thing out there, on pure pace.

Diesal road cars can outperform similar spec petrol models.

The same journalist predicted Porsche would not enter P2, and saw little future for protoypes 12-18 months ago, so why should he be correct on the P1 Porsche.

Do you think the ACO would create a set of regs that ruled out Porsches return to the top class with a petrol P1?

Given time and money I'm sure almost any scenario is possible, but to say definitevely that this or that cannot be competive is folly, IMO.

[Garrett]

Why doesn't the ACO make the LMP1 class a diesel LMP class and LMP2 a petrol LMP class to compete for overall wins...

Or the classes could be called LMP D1 for diesel and LMP G1 for gasoline...

Just a suggestion

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by JAG

Why would you think an Audi or Peugeot P1 diesal would not be the quickest thing out there, on pure pace.

That I don't know at all. We have nothing to go by, the Taurus attempt was more novelty then anything else (I applaud them for getting there). I know with the Nasamax effort, due to decreased efficiency of fuel, they were offered the larger tankage to compensate. Is the fuel tank capacity the same on petrol and diesel in the regs?

I am solidly in the camp of wanting Porsche to build a P1 car, but oddly if they go out and win with a P2 class car that actually runs parallel with their history before the 917 with the 904's thru the 908's (I know it took the 917 to have victory at Le Mans).

Certainly Audi must have done their sums and they know they can do it with a diesel, and I am just fascinated by what its performance is going to look like. If it is pure speed they can muster well that will be interesting too--and I won't argue with that. Certainly, if it is based on staying out on the track this is also going to be an interesting tire war era as you will want stable tires for really long stints, and they will have to get young punks to drive it instead of those old guys they have now

robert