-help- Ferrari are cheaters

[asdf]

Hello i started to watch f1 last year and read that ferrari are cheaters and michael please can you tell me some informations about them ? when ? what GP?

[Super Hans]

Well, when people refer to Michael Schumacher as a cheat they're usually referring to controversial incidents at Adelaide 1994, Jerez 1997 & Monaco 2006.

When people refer to Ferrari as cheats, it's usually due to a perceived collusion between them and the FIA, prompted by bizarre penalties issued to their close rivals, such as Alonso's grid penalty at Monza 2006 and Hamilton's penalties at Spa and Fuji in 2008.

[duke_toaster]

And the movable floors at the start of last year, Super Hans. They removed them after Australia (?) though.

[Marbot]

I wasn't aware that it was Ferrari that were cheating.

[bravo]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

Well, when people refer to Michael Schumacher as a cheat they're usually referring to controversial incidents at Adelaide 1994, Jerez 1997 & Monaco 2006.

When people refer to Ferrari as cheats, it's usually due to a perceived collusion between them and the FIA, prompted by bizarre penalties issued to their close rivals, such as Alonso's grid penalty at Monza 2006 and Hamilton's penalties at Spa and Fuji in 2008.

Don't forget the penalty served on last lap at Silverstone 1998 allowing him to miss half the pitlane.

[Bononi]

Sure they are cheaters, otherwise they wouldn't be so dominant.

TGF in 1994 was driving a Renault, and the cheater was Briatore with the consent of one Bernie... but that must be forgotten like many other cheats perpetrated by other teams.

Don't lose your perspective that F1 is a fair game.

[beau1]

Ferrari are cheaters, McLaren are cheaters, Renault are cheaters with Flav.

I guess that means BMW are the true top team on the grid

[Dutton]

Originally Posted by bravo

Don't forget the penalty served on last lap at Silverstone 1998 allowing him to miss half the pitlane.

Except that situation came up as a result of the timing the officials gave out the penalty. After that race, he had 25s added to his finishing time. It also caused the rule scenario being altered eversoslightly to the situation we currently have.

There is a difference between cheating and working with the rules as they are presently set out.

*******

With regards the moveable floor thing, well, the FIA had passed that same floor as legal. Mclaren were only able to protest it because they had the Ferrari team's drawings of it in the first place.

[JohnSSC]

Originally Posted by Dutton

Except that situation came up as a result of the timing the officials gave out the penalty. After that race, he had 25s added to his finishing time. It also caused the rule scenario being altered eversoslightly to the situation we currently have.

There is a difference between cheating and working with the rules as they are presently set out.

*******

With regards the moveable floor thing, well, the FIA had passed that same floor as legal. Mclaren were only able to protest it because they had the Ferrari team's drawings of it in the first place.

Which was just another situation where Ferrari cheated by having a dishonest employee steal the drawings and send them to McLaren! You see, they have a Psychic on payroll who was able to predict all that back when they hired him so this was all planned in advance.

I started watching F1 in the 1960's and no one has ever cheated until 1994, not once. Ever. Not even the time the guy from McLaren (I think it was) got locked in the Ferrari transporter when he lost his way to the loo...but that was not cheating!

[Bononi]

Water tanks, allegedly for cooling purposes, but strangely only filled after the race... that would be Tyrrel, one of my faves team.
The (in)famous fan car - not car for fans to drive - of one win and then banned, that would be Brabham, another big fave of my mine.
Led pellets, injected with the fuel in the last pitstop to add weight to the car to meet the after race requirements, that would be Benetton.

That was not cheating then, just being smart... is that would be cheating now ?

[XJR14/WSC95]

Michael Schumacher drove a Benetton Ford in 1994 and you could argue that the incident at Adelaide was not to dissimilar the incident involving Massa and Hamilton in Fuji, witch resulted in a drive through penalty. As far as I’m concern, and the Benetton legality aside, witch is nothing to do with Schumacher just as Alonso and Hamilton were found to be not responsible for McLaren misgivings last year, I felt that Schumacher was by no means gifted the 1994 World Drivers Championship.

Schumacher was disqualified from first place of the 1994 British Grand Prix for overtaking Hill on the parade lap, before he was let back through in time for the start. He was disqualified from the race result for "failing to maintain position" and Benetton were fined $25,000(I think the fine and subsiquent 2 race ban given on appeal was for not serving a 10 second stop go during the race).

He was disqualified from his victory at the ’94 Belgian Grand Prix due to excessive wear on his Benetton's skid block, indicating the car's ride height was too low and giving the car an illegal aerodynamic advantage. The race officals would not accept the excessive wear had been caused by a spin at Pouhon on lap 19 which caused the floor to run over the kerbing on the outside of the corner. To quote Niki Lauda “Worst disision in F1 history”.

So effectivley Schumacher was stripped of 20 points plus two races. Hill had no right to win the world championship in 1994 and you would have to be blind to think that Schumacher was not the most desurving winner of the ’94 Drivers Championship. Had a cirtain British driver in a Britsh team been treated this way there would be a massive outrage and conspiracy theories all over the net. Ooh, that’s what’s happening this year…

25 Seconds was not added to Schumachers 98 British GP Victory as he served his drive through penalty within the required number of laps. Teams can not be penalised for competing within the rules laid out by the governing body. It’s up the FIA to be smarter when writing the rules.

Rant over.

[Jonerz]

"I know they're cheating... because I'm cheating and they're beating me!"

Racing, you gotta love it.

Chris

[JohnSSC]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Water tanks, allegedly for cooling purposes, but strangely only filled after the race... that would be Tyrrel, one of my faves team.
The (in)famous fan car - not car for fans to drive - of one win and then banned, that would be Brabham, another big fave of my mine.
Led pellets, injected with the fuel in the last pitstop to add weight to the car to meet the after race requirements, that would be Benetton.

That was not cheating then, just being smart... is that would be cheating now ?

Don't forget the famous Honda fuel tank - or perhaps that was when Honda was still BARF - clever little design that allowed the car to hold more fuel than anyone thought it held...but that wasn't cheating. They were just being thrifty as it allowed them to let their Auto Club membership expire as they no longer had to worry about running out of fuel...

[Dutton]

Indeed. The design itself was perfectly alright. It was the team's declarations and actions with the fluids that was their problem.

[RaiseYourFist]

NO, the FIA give penalties to the other teams so that when Ferrari beats them they will have an excuse....

[marcus]

Originally Posted by Bononi

TGF in 1994 was driving a Renault, and the cheater was Briatore with the consent of one Bernie..

I Just want to clarify this , in 1994 Schumacher was driving a BENETTON with a FORD engine , Renault had nothing to do with the team in 1994......they started using Renualt engines in 1995.

Cleared up ......... carry on

[Bononi]

Thanks Marcus... like they say... It was all about Briatore.

[Peter Mallett]

Going from my admittedly poor memory:

Originally Posted by Bononi

Water tanks, allegedly for cooling purposes, but strangely only filled after the race... that would be Tyrrel, one of my faves team.

Slight correction there. It was Brabham who refilled the water tanks and that was deemed legal (eventually all teams did it) because the car could be restocked with essential fluids after the race. Tyrrel were using these particular tanks to cool the engine by injecting it together with the fuel, the trouble was they had some "ballast" in the tanks in the form of lead or something which surprisingly appeared to contain hydro carbons and thus their fuel was deemed illegal.

Many teams had these tanks for brake cooling and would empty them as soon as the race started only to re fill them at race end (see below).

Originally Posted by Bononi

The (in)famous fan car - not car for fans to drive - of one win and then banned, that would be Brabham, another big fave of my mine.

It was never banned. Bernie withdrew it on "sporting" grounds. He'd lost the championship to Lotus by then anyway and his ground effect BT52(?) was about to hit the tracks.

Originally Posted by Bononi

Led pellets, injected with the fuel in the last pitstop to add weight to the car to meet the after race requirements, that would be Benetton.

See Tyrrell above, they were sponsored by Benetton at the time.

[Bononi]

Thanks, Peter !

I was a kid back there, that was an adult issue...

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by asdf

Hello i started to watch f1 last year and read that ferrari are cheaters and michael please can you tell me some informations about them ? when ? what GP?

As such.

[RichardRenes]

Off course Ferrari, and McLaren and all the other teams are trying to see how far they can go within the rules or outside them.

Is that cheating? Depends on your definition. In any case, Ferrari is usually better at it than the rest.

[JeremySmith]

That makes me see red...

[elspethhardie]

what's the smilie for opening a can of worms?!?!

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by elspethhardie

what's the smilie for opening a can of worms?!?!

Easy.

[ljakse]

Originally Posted by XJR14/WSC95

Schumacher was disqualified from first place of the 1994 British Grand Prix for overtaking Hill on the parade lap, before he was let back through in time for the start. He was disqualified from the race result for "failing to maintain position" and Benetton were fined $25,000(I think the fine and subsiquent 2 race ban given on appeal was for not serving a 10 second stop go during the race).

A driver not serving issued penalty, IMO, should be immidiately DQ-ed from whole year. Can you imagine football player who doesn't leave the field after been given a red card??????

Originally Posted by XJR14/WSC95

So effectivley Schumacher was stripped of 20 points plus two races. Hill had no right to win the world championship in 1994 and you would have to be blind to think that Schumacher was not the most desurving winner of the ’94 Drivers Championship. Had a cirtain British driver in a Britsh team been treated this way there would be a massive outrage and conspiracy theories all over the net. Ooh, that’s what’s happening this year…

Fuel rig without appropriate filter that was removed by a 'junior team member'.
Traction control that 'they didn't use'
and so on....

If last year McLaren was found to have (done) anything similar to theese, the team would have been fined 1 billion dollars ($ 1,000,000,000.00) and Ron Dennis personally would have been forbidden to get near anything under FIA's authority for life!

I even didn't get to Adelaide, and you call that deserving...


Now, that is a rant!