News of groupbio/ d1 lmp1 diesel project

[johnyardley]

Hi,
Wondered if anyone / racecar enginneering had any new about Ian Dawsons groupbio/ d1 lmp1 diesel project based near snetterton.
This was formerly taurus sports lmp1 v10 tdi based on touareg engine that raced at le mans in 2004.

Best wishes

John

[ss_collins]

I'll get on the 'phone John,

Last I saw of the car it was in mildly modded state at the eden project, since then it been reported that he's after a new chassis

[knighty]

aparrently they were trying to go testing around may 2007........gawd knows if they did actually test or not?........

I would like to see Ian put another Diesel project together......... as we all know the Lola is now well out of date......and 530bhp aint going to do much even against a missfiring 5.5 Judd V10......but I wish them all the best of luck, gotta be worth a try........

to my knowledge theres no other production based big deisels that would lend them selves well to installation in an LMP1, so they are probably stuck with the VW V10 motor.

[johnyardley]

Originally Posted by knighty

...
to my knowledge theres no other production based big deisels that would lend them selves well to installation in an LMP1, so they are probably stuck with the VW V10 motor.

Hi,
Perhaps the 4.2 litre audi bi turbo tdi engine would be used and reduce weight so that it would fit in privateer lmp2 category, that would be a first!!!
Thanks for your comments... kepp em coming.

Best wishes

John
N.b shame can't use the big us v8 diesels, cummins, duramax, powerstroke etc

[xc4pot]

Weight savings would lead you to the jag twin turbo V6, i think its one of the lightes production diesel engines, it would just leave u needing to make lots of power!

[johnyardley]

Hi, the 2.7 hdi doesn't have enough capacity?
btw just learned today that seat is entering a diesel leon in the wtcc in sweden next weekend, purportedly with 280 bhp

John

[knighty]

to my knowledge the Audi and US based V8 engines just wouldnt be able to inject enough fuel, this is why pug and Audi went the V12 route.......

I have also worked on the Audi motor, to cut a long story short, it would not lend itself well to race use!......and the V8's would be too highly stressed........the US engines are VERY big and VERY heavy

as for LMP2, i think thats the last thing they need, and the Ford/Jag V6 weighs 200Kg fully dressed......thats way too heavy even for an LMP1 motor!

I think it only a matter of time before one of the german manufacturers releases a V12 diesel, that I dare say would be a good donor, but it would probably be very heavy too

in short, to build a competitive motor, you gotta have a clean sheet of paper.......the days of using a mass produced engine as a base donor seem to be over in both LMP1 and 2........shame

I reckon there are some great cylinder heads out there, the 300bhp 3 litre BMW straight six head would be ideal, and top of my list by far, use 2 heads, the pistons and rods.......design a bespoke block slightly de-stroked crank, and sump system etc......heypresto, a 5.5 V12 for sensible money......seriously - it could be done

[johnyardley]

Originally Posted by knighty

I have also worked on the Audi motor, to cut a long story short, it would not lend itself well to race use!......

Want to expand on this point please

John

[knighty]

Actually, I'm going to retract most of that statement......the Audi V8 aint too bad as a basis for a race motor...............the main thing that would put me off is the fact that the engine is VERY tall and the rear chain drive system is very complex.......but most of the height is in the sump, and that will be binned, and you could live with the chain system.

the block heads, fuel system and pistons of the Audi V8 actualy aint too bad, the block is cast Iron, so will be quite heavy, but its quite compact and small(read below), nowhere near as quirky as the V10 or the other VW pumpe-dueze heads.

aparrently Audi do everything possible in order to design the engines as short as possible in order to fit their 4wd system, hence, what they lose in length, they gain in height, but mostly in the sump........I dare say that if a decent dry sump could be engineered and achieve a sensible engine height, you could live with the rest.

If I was evaluating the Audi V8 Diesel for an LMP project........also take a look at the BMW V8, its an ali block with cast-in steel liners. its quite a nice item.......although the BMW is significantly more deeper skirted than the Audi, therefore, the BMW would have a higher C of G than the BMW.......which swings in the audis favour.

John - Are you anything to do with Taurus, or racing diesels?.......or just interested?.....e-mail me if you dont want to post the details here

[johnyardley]

Hi,
I am a dieselhead who wanted to help a small innovate english team out in any way that i could. My job involved website development and I helped Ian contstruct versions of a website.
I no longer live in england.
Best wishes

John

[johnyardley]

Hi,
One of the real problems I an had was the way v10 tdi engine is control by a master and slave ecu. caterpillar (2004) developed new system which i believe developed into their acert system. PI was later taken on board as caterpillar refused to let the team use the code - more expense. Ithink the team developed a dry sump to reduce height.
The last i heard the engine was back at mountune having engine/ manifold/ turbo development and testing.
The big problem is to stop spikes in torque, and we have all see audi's stepping sideways out of slow speed corners - even with their knowledge. Did you see the incident where McNish took a 360 degree turn down the cork screw.
Best wishes

john

[Notso Swift]

Originally Posted by knighty

I reckon there are some great cylinder heads out there, the 300bhp 3 litre BMW straight six head would be ideal, and top of my list by far, use 2 heads, the pistons and rods.......design a bespoke block slightly de-stroked crank, and sump system etc......heypresto, a 5.5 V12 for sensible money......seriously - it could be done

Isn't that essentially what they did in order to develop their original V12 petrol motor?

Re the Jag TDV6. Correct me if I am wrong, but since the limitation to power is generally the restrictors won’t the smaller capacity have the advantage in providing an extended rev range. Peak power will be the same, there is the potential to develop more lag (due to lower air flow at a specific rpm) however, I have found on my (petrol) restricted turbo that the max revs are directly proportional to the capacity, while the turbo spool point is not, giving a greater total operational range and in a smaller lighter package (indeed, I was toying with the idea of a screaming, high boost Diahatsu 993cc motor, but I couldn't see it holding the required 320 hp on pump fuel). Or is it a case that the Diesel just will not rev high enough to make up for the capacity limitations.

[knighty]

dunno? - did they?

no......on a diesel the limitation to power is not just the restrictors........its principally the fueling.......diesels dont have throttles like gasoline engines......they are controlled by fuelling, not air throttling.....to truly limit diesel power, the fuelling needs to have some form of flow & pressure restriction. hence your theory about the V6 dosent quite work like that.

the highest strung circuit race diesel I have come accross are the audi and pug diesels, over 700bhp form 5.5 litres works out at around 130bhp per litre......therefore a 2.7 litre Jag motor would produce around 350 bhp for an LMP2 motor........which might sound poor, but the torque would be massive.

500bhp divide 130bhp = about 3.8 Litres.......therefore thats the ball park capacity for an LMP2 motor, so something like the Audi or BMW V8 are nearer the mark for a diesel LMP2 motor........not the 6 cylinder motors.

[johnyardley]

Hi,
Not quite the higest output per litre i have come accross.
Allard run a golf tdi in the vw cup running 126 - 140 bhp litre .
This weekend seat are running a tdi leon in wttcc at sweden with 140 bhp litre.
Various duramax and cummins diesels run more than 125 bhp litre, some alot more.
Dms tuned bmw 335d runs around 115 bhp litre.
I think there is still a lot more to come from the pug and audi, i reckon they are only running 2 bar boost!
I think that with the benefit of hindsight the groupbio engine could/ should have remained nearer to stock. Standard 313 bhp in the touareg with capability to tune to 400+ bhp. Back in 2004 with that spec and reliable performance it might have achieved an excellent placing. That would have further sustained the project. which is a damm shame as the team really deserve more success!

Best wishes

John

Originally Posted by knighty

dunno? - did they?

no......on a diesel the limitation to power is not just the restrictors........its principally the fueling.......diesels dont have throttles like gasoline engines......they are controlled by fuelling, not air throttling.....to truly limit diesel power, the fuelling needs to have some form of flow & pressure restriction. hence your theory about the V6 dosent quite work like that.

the highest strung circuit race diesel I have come accross are the audi and pug diesels, over 700bhp form 5.5 litres works out at around 130bhp per litre......therefore a 2.7 litre Jag motor would produce around 350 bhp for an LMP2 motor........which might sound poor, but the torque would be massive.

500bhp divide 130bhp = about 3.8 Litres.......therefore thats the ball park capacity for an LMP2 motor, so something like the Audi or BMW V8 are nearer the mark for a diesel LMP2 motor........not the 6 cylinder motors.

[johnyardley]

Hi,
Sorry, back into 2004 aco didn't allow vnt turbos.
Amazing how audi has such clout!!!

[johnyardley]

Hi,
Anyway back to the main subject, any news on groupbio?

Best wishes

John
N.B don't bmw make 3.6 v8 diesel that's in range rover?

[Notso Swift]

Yes, twin turbo V8 next door has one in his Range Rover sport, that is a post BMW design (ie Land Rover/Ford)

[johnyardley]

Well i see that an lmp2 chassis complying with current rules is for saloe on dailysportscar - a perfect match?

John