The demise of the all-rounder

[nicanary]

I was reading the article in this month's Motor Sport about Emerson Fittipaldi, and it occurred to me that I actually didn't know much about him. I had started to follow GP racing to a lesser degree by the time he was champion for the first time, and to tell you the truth I have trouble naming the F1 champions from the 70s onwards.

I know of course that he had a meteoric rise up to F1, and that he enjoyed himself in CART racing at the end of his career, but did he ever race anything else in between? I have a feeling that he may have been the first F1 World Champion who wasn't an all-rounder - in other words, having reached the peak so to speak, he didn't bother with anything else.

Brabham, G.Hill, Clark, Surtees, Hulme, Stewart, Rindt, they all drove in other formulae whilst reigning champions, but I can't recall this with Emmo unless it was F2 for Lotus. After him, the next champ who kept to F1 was Niki Lauda (or did he race those BMW Pro-Cars?), and I believe this was the start of the demise of the all-rounder driver. Maybe it was contractual obligations, or even problems with personal insurance following all the fatalities at that time.

Over to you....

[Al Weyman]

He drove the car I have in my garage I believe! If not he would have driven against it, Chevrolet Camaro 1977 Tube Frame IROC Race car, Emo drove in the series. see here http://www.rauzulusstreet.com/racing/iroc/1979.htm

[nicanary]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

He drove the car I have in my garage I believe! If not he would have driven against it, Chevrolet Camaro 1977 Tube Frame IROC Race car, Emo drove in the series. see here http://www.rauzulusstreet.com/racing/iroc/1979.htm

Now there's something I'd forgotten about. That would have been in his Fittipaldi/Copersucar phase of F1, so perhaps he needed the cash.

So I have my answer pretty quickly! Not quite the same as the old-style all-rounders though. Jimmy Clark was quite happy to drive saloons, sports-cars, GTs, F2, and even Pat Lindsay's ERA and a NASCAR stocker. And a Lotus Cortina in the RAC Rally. And as for Roy Salvadori - out of one car and into the next for the following race.

Mind you, although I don't follow American racing, I have huge respect and affection for the great "racers" such as Parnelli Jones, AJ Foyt and above all, the legend that is Mario. They just loved to drive anything, anywhere.

(Surprised to see Alan Jones in that IROC thingy - I bet you heard pretty caustic comments from him about just about everything.)

[mountainstar]

Emmo raced IMSA around 1984 when he made his comeback and then switched over to CART.

[Darcia1]

The late great Frank Gardener he drove and enginerred everthing from f2 to f1 touring cars to sportscars... Then sports sedans in Australia and later Group C and grpA team manager JpS Bmw and later won the Big one Bathurst with Tony Longhurst Ford RS 500 cosworth...

[nicanary]

But why did it all stop, and when? Was it just because they started to earn huge sums, or was there something else?

I can't believe that none of the big names didn't enjoy driving racing cars for the sake of it. I know about Emmo's comeback - by why did he not drive in, say, Le Mans like his peers in F1, at the time of his GP peak?

[John Elwin]

1978 World Champion Mario Andretti has raced a greater variety of machinery than most.

1982 WC Keke Rosberg has more recently raced in DTM, as has Mika Hakkinen, also non-champions Ralf Schumacher & David Coulthard. Paul di Resta passed throu' DTM on his way to F1.

Multi champion Michael Schumacher raced 'bikes during the interlude in his F1 career, whilst John Surtees did it the other way round.

[Mike Bell]

Seems we have two different types of 'all rounders'- those that drove different formula while in F1 and those that moved from one formula to another. To me first type is the real all rounder!

[Paul D]

I suspect that the main reason for the lack of all-rounders at the top level these days, compared to, say, a generation ago, is mainly to do with the skill sets needed to reach the top in any given fomula.

What I mean is that each discipline is so specialised now that any normal person only really has time to acquire the necessary skills and experience to reach the top in one type of racing.

You have to start young these days to reach the top echelons and you have to be focussed on your particular discipline. Just look at most of today's top F1 drivers - most have been karting since before they could walk, and have focussed specifically on single seaters, to the detriment of other things. This wasn't always the case if we go back 30 or 40 years, and many of the top guys then didn't even start that young.

Look at the diversity of the machinery now too: If you take a rally car, a Le Mans car, a touring car and an F1 car from, say, the sixties - yes, they're very different machines, but they also share a fair bit in common with each other, and I'd say the skills needed to drive any one of them quickly are fairly similar. None of them were fitted with any kind of electronic gizmos or driver aids, they were (mostly) RWD, and all utilised relatively straightforward suspension and braking systems.

Compare that with today's equivalent cars: incredibly complicated machines with sophisticated electronics, some are 4WD with turbos and amazingly complex transmissions, some are FWD, some are RWD, and every one of them is a highly specialised machine designed to perform a very specific function in its own arena. Therefore, I think it's logical to assume that highly specialised and developed skills are needed to get the best out of them - and there isn't enough time in one life to learn the required skills and gain the necessary experience to reach the top in more than one discipline.

I'm sure if you got straight out of a works Healey 3000 and into a Lotus F1 car of the same period, they'd feel very different for sure, but I reckon you'd soon realise that you were using basically the same skills to drive them both. But getting straight out of Sebastien Loeb's WRC Citroen and into Lewis Hamilton's McLaren must be like climbing out a nuclear submarine and into the space shuttle!

[morninggents]

Can't agree, Paul. As you say climbing between a Healey 3000 of the '60's in to a F1 car of the 60's would feel different but need basically the same skills works just the same in today's electronic gizmos world where a WRC car and a McLaren, although feeling different, would require the same skillset to understand the controls and driving feel.
I reckon the reason for the demise of the allrounder is purely to do with the contracts drivers negotiate at the top levels.

[nicanary]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Seems we have two different types of 'all rounders'- those that drove different formula while in F1 and those that moved from one formula to another. To me first type is the real all rounder!

I agree with that - I feel that drivers who, for instance, retire from F1 and then do DTM are simply moving-on career wise, whilst maintaining a contact with the sport and obtaining an income.

I'm really trying to refer to an earlier era when it was commonplace for established stars to have a go in other classes. Some would even race at Rheims in the 12-hr sports-car race, and the shower and change and take part in the following F1 race. There was sometimes problems with petrol contracts for instance, if one team used one supplier, and the driver had a contract with another. But it was usually amicably resolved.

It just all seemed to stop, and it was about the time of Emmo and Niki. By then the big money was starting to come into the sport, and maybe the sponsors didn't want their star getting into someone else's car.

[Al Weyman]

I would say as far as F1 is concerned its all about contractual obligations not allowing them to risk themselves in other race series.

[nicanary]

It's all a bit sad, though. Come on , let's get our heads together and decide who would be up for it if given the chance. Which F1 drivers of today' field would have a go, in say, BTCC or GT1 if let loose from their contractual obligations?

Who would drive for fun, and nothing else? And to add spice to it, who would be the fastest if there were no electronic aids, if all the cars were "proper" gearchange, clutch, and no downforce.??

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by nicanary

But why did it all stop, and when? Was it just because they started to earn huge sums, or was there something else?

I can't believe that none of the big names didn't enjoy driving racing cars for the sake of it. I know about Emmo's comeback - by why did he not drive in, say, Le Mans like his peers in F1, at the time of his GP peak?

In the 1980's there were still plenty of F1 drivers that raced in Group C and Touring Cars, but by the mid 1990's that was done due to the increasing commercialization and time demands of F1.

A lot of drivers never liked Le Mans at all, which is why some would never go there.

Being a pro driver is a totally different mindset from an amateur who doesn't do that as his main business. As an amateur you can pick and choose where to allocate your resources but as a pro, even back decades ago, it's a business which requires a lot of time, commitment and travel.

[bella]

there's still drivers outside of f1 who will have a go at anything for the experience and competition. it seems common for young french drivers to have a go at rallying, for example. i can think of two who have done that in the past year after single seater seasons, one of whom went on to the rallye monte carlo and then did le mans this year too with a fair amount of success.

the closest you get in modern f1 is young guys who have started out doing stuff like speedway and anything they can get their hands on, then gone into karting and fallen down the single seater rabbithole that way. there's also quite a few who do different series of a similar discipline - gp3 and fr3.5 for example.

i agree with mountainstar about it being a mindset too - the 100% obsession is winning THAT title or ending up as a f1 driver. or being a f1 driver.

[nicanary]

I can also see that there is far more racing in the modern world - back in the 50s/60s there was usually only one major meeting each weekend, whereas today the multitude of formulae means there's less chance of free time to try something else.

Pity. Even a stellar ace like Jim Clark just loved to try out a different car or class of event.

[chunterer]

The late great Colin McRae got close, he did a few BTCC races and tested other cars including F1 but no deal was ever struck which is a shame as he would've done well in almost anything.

Seb Loeb is the most recent type of proper all rounder? WRC and GT/LMP1 at Le Mans? Stephane Sarrazin ditto...

Gilles Villenueve would have driven anything (quite often did!), and Michael Schumacher dovetailed Group C with F3, 1989/90 and then F3000 in Japan in '91.

I would love to see Schuey do the WEC in the next couple of seasons or something. Imagine the extra PR effect that would have on WEC's profile but unless Benz come in with something, it is unlikely we would see him do that as well as F1 at the same time.

[Andy Clegg]

Maybe Rally drivers would be more adaptable these days. Also didn't Michael Sundstrum race in a BTCC meeting at Brands?

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by nicanary

I can also see that there is far more racing in the modern world - back in the 50s/60s there was usually only one major meeting each weekend, whereas today the multitude of formulae means there's less chance of free time to try something else.

Pity. Even a stellar ace like Jim Clark just loved to try out a different car or class of event.

Well, I think a lot of drivers would want to do that these days, but it's such a full time business that you don't have the time or energy to do it.

Back in those days, the few pro drivers that were around would get paid to appear at these lesser meetings to draw crowds. They didn't have all of the commercial, fitness and travel obligations and/or opportunities drivers have now. Back in the day you might have 10 GP's a year, mostly in Europe and now it's 20 or so GP's from one corner of the world to another, with tons of promotional work involved as well.

Personally I think drivers should get all the time they can in other series and cars to develop their skills and experience, but if you are a well paid pro, you really need to devote all of your time to that job.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by chunterer

The late great Colin McRae got close, he did a few BTCC races and tested other cars including F1 but no deal was ever struck which is a shame as he would've done well in almost anything.

Seb Loeb is the most recent type of proper all rounder? WRC and GT/LMP1 at Le Mans? Stephane Sarrazin ditto...

Gilles Villenueve would have driven anything (quite often did!), and Michael Schumacher dovetailed Group C with F3, 1989/90 and then F3000 in Japan in '91.

I would love to see Schuey do the WEC in the next couple of seasons or something. Imagine the extra PR effect that would have on WEC's profile but unless Benz come in with something, it is unlikely we would see him do that as well as F1 at the same time.

Pirro was probably the last of the full time all arounders(not just the odd event elsewhere) when he raced F1, Japan F3000, Group C and touring cars in 1989 and IRC he was even doing F1 testing for Honda in Japan.

[Mike Bell]

From what's written about the 'old' days, my take is that drivers needed to do all the racing they could to earn a living, so if not in an F1 car the likes of Jim Clark would be keen to boost income by competing in other formula between GPs or indeed on same weekend. In those days they wouldnt have sponsors PR to worry about or the contractual limitations that no doubt restrict today's stars.

Definitely a different world now and even the aforementioned Seb Loeb has to carefully dovetail his Sports Car stuff with his Citroen Rally commitments.

Funny no-one has mentioned Nigel Mansell in touring cars........

[John Elwin]

Whilst contractural etc constraints undoubtedly have an affect, the present-day crowded calendar doesn't help either. With 20-odd GP's on the programme there realistically isn't much opportunity for F1 drivers to do other things. Gone are the days when you could turn up & do the odd couple of GP's before going off & doing something else! Even Le Mans usually clashes with a GP.

By contrast, the 1965 Championship consisted of just ten Grand Prix's, so as well as claiming the World Championship for Lotus, Jim Clark also found time to go off and win the Indianapolis 500, successfully compete in the British Saloon Car Championship and take in a few Formula 2 & sports car races - oh, & before the European season had even got under way he had contested no less than 15 Tasman Series races 'down under'. No mean feat.

Clark himself comments in his own book 'Jim Clark at the wheel':

"Top-line International motor racing today knows no 'close season' such as you have in football or even cricket, and any leading driver can fully occupy himself fifty-two weeks of the year in motor racing if he wants to. He can, for instance, race in Europe during the summer, take in the Fall American season around September and October, and then move to South Africa for their season in November and December. January and February see the Australian and New Zealand races, and then March finds the beginning of the European season again, and so it goes on.

Yes, it was different then!

[chunterer]

We almost had the all year round calendar back with A1 and GP2 Asia in recent years, sadly no longer but I suspect Bernie would like F1 all year round if he could get away with it!

I agree in general with what's generally been said, contracts and commercial pressure means drivers don't really have the choice any longer unless they've got the bottle to ensure it's in their contract. Trouble with that is what happens if they then go and smash themselves up a la Robert Kubica?

Drivers should be free to do what they want but if they are paid a multi million dollar retainer to do 20 odd GP's, then perhaps a team/manufacturer has every right to want them to not do much else as it's their performance and results at stake.

[nicanary]

Interesting that Chunterer mentioned Gilles Villeneuve - his wee fella Jacques was supposed to drive an old GP car from the 70s or 80s for some sort of PR occasion and refused to get in, saying the whole car was too dangerous, with no apparent safety considerations. So, not a chip off the old block.

Mention has been made of Kubica's accident, and this sort of thing was a problem in the old days. Was it Patrick Depailler who had both a motor cycle accident and then a far worse hang-gliding accident? Not much use to his employers.