A Technical Change I'd Like To See....

bobdrummond · 22 Sep 2002, 18:24 (Ref:386029)

Get rid of steering-wheel gearchanges. Instead, specify that the gearchange must be identical - in terms of position & operation - to the road-going car. In other words, if a standard Focus has a H-pattern change on the floor, then so must the WRC.

Just look at the famous Rohrl/Portugal or Vatanen/Pikes-Peak clips to see why.

JAG · 22 Sep 2002, 20:08 (Ref:386093)

Ironically Audi were the big fans of semi-autos with the PDK gearbox, also used on the Porsche 962. Rohl was a big fan of this.

Semi-auto paddle shifs are probably the next big technical change in road cars after ABS and traction/stability control. All BMWs M cars will have semi-autos plus many new sports cars will have paddle shifts at least as an option.

Lee Janotta · 23 Sep 2002, 00:11 (Ref:386223)

Yeah, but those systems for the street aren't nearly as good as the ones in race cars. I agree with Bob totally. Make 'em run the same tranny as the street car, just allow them to beef it up enough to handle the torque.

I still say someone who's really good with an H-shift gearbox can go up and down thru the gears just as fast as the Ferrari or BMW street system. I've run in stoplight races against plenty of automatic cars, and I barely lose any ground in between shifts (Borg-Warner T5 has a good synchromesh, admittedly). I still use the clutch, mind you, but just barely roll off the throttle. I'm already moving the lever as I disengage the clutch... It's out just long enough to get the next gear engaged.

They'll have to pry the gearshift from my cold dead hands!!! There's nothing like that rush!

I'm sure that paddle-shift transmissions will become increasingly common in luxury cars, as well as CVTs. But for plebians like us, I think the manual gearshift and clutch pedal will be around as long as the internal combustion engine survives.

alfasud · 23 Sep 2002, 03:00 (Ref:386283)

The Alfa Romeo 147 is hardly a luxury car. Mind you, I'm not sure how many are sold with the regular gearshift vs the paddle change (selespeed I think they call it).

Dani Filth · 23 Sep 2002, 06:49 (Ref:386323)

the numbers aren't big cause it cost more .. and is only available for the 2.0 litre and it could be for the new Alfa 147GTA

racer69 · 23 Sep 2002, 09:54 (Ref:386440)

I agree, get rid of all the techo-garbage inside the cars. Of course you gotta keep some of them, but not all, plus it is sending expenses through the roof.

I think something needs to be done also to make the cars a bit more exciting to watch, on gravel it seems fine, but watching the San Remo i didn't think the cars looked that exciting on the tarmac.

JAG · 23 Sep 2002, 17:55 (Ref:386708)

Automatics, I agree are terrible. But paddle shifts are very good (in my opinion better tha a manual box) IF they are quick to change gear. At the moment many paddle shifts, including the 360 are just to slow.

Apparantly the new BMW system is currently the best on the market while the one fitted to the Enzo works in true F1 style, i.e. instant shifts.

Many car enthusiasts/testers would pefer paddle shifts if they were as quick as a manual. In the next few years paddle shifts will improve as more experience is gained.

Of course some will always prefer manuals.

Its no use banning technology in WRCs as the cost of developing them has already happened.

Also the WRCs main role now is to test new technolgy that will be used in road cars.

gazzarallie · 24 Sep 2002, 06:35 (Ref:387072)

spot on jagg

alchemy · 24 Sep 2002, 08:45 (Ref:387115)

Quote:

Originally posted by bobdrummond
Get rid of steering-wheel gearchanges. Instead, specify that the gearchange must be identical - in terms of position & operation - to the road-going car. In other words, if a standard Focus has a H-pattern change on the floor, then so must the WRC.

Yea…… and bring back the starting handle!!!!

Liz · 24 Sep 2002, 10:37 (Ref:387166)

It wasn't that long ago when all cars were manual shift and we seeme dto manage fine (although they were column shift when I was driving them.)

Perhaps they ought to beef up the handbrake to keep the lever from coming off in one's hands. (Our handbrake was a button on the floor, as I remember.)

alchemy · 24 Sep 2002, 11:13 (Ref:387184)

Nostalgia is an ephemeral composition of disjointed memories...

Talking of nostalgia - it definitely isn't what it used to be!

Bring back public flogging is what I say, along with the umbrella hand brake and Roger Clarke’s hair grooming……

Lee Janotta · 25 Sep 2002, 02:50 (Ref:387780)

And public orgies! Yeah!!!

C'mon, when you really think about it, what is motorsport but a form of gladiatorial combat that the powers that be use to pacify the masses?

'course, it's one of the more entertaining forms...

ljakse · 27 Sep 2002, 08:29 (Ref:389581)

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
I still say someone who's really good with an H-shift gearbox can go up and down thru the gears just as fast as the Ferrari or BMW street system. I've run in stoplight races against plenty of automatic cars, and I barely lose any ground in between shifts (Borg-Warner T5 has a good synchromesh, admittedly). I still use the clutch, mind you, but just barely roll off the throttle. I'm already moving the lever as I disengage the clutch... It's out just long enough to get the next gear engaged.

Not really.
First semi-autos you could have beaten by manual, but these new ones...
That first Alfa 156 Selespeed needed 0.8 seconds to change gear, and I agree, it can be done faster manually.
However, on the new cars (BMW Ms, and similar) it takes 0.08 sec for a gearchange. No way you can do it faster with the clutch.
And, don't mix 'automatics with manual option' and 'semi-automatics'. I often drive Audi A6 allroad (company car) with 'automatic with manual option' - automatic is faster than manual. The same goes for all of those.

429CJ · 27 Sep 2002, 19:48 (Ref:390119)

I would have nothing against rulechanges, what will ban 4wd cars and make rwd cars mandatory...

gazzarallie · 28 Sep 2002, 09:00 (Ref:390416)

i remember a rally xs servey about what would most want to be kept on a rally car and the most voted by the wrc drivers was to keep the four wheel drive system. So rear wheel drive preposal wouldnt get full support from the drivers

Lee Janotta · 28 Sep 2002, 22:50 (Ref:390782)

Quote:

Originally posted by ljakse

Not really.
First semi-autos you could have beaten by manual, but these new ones...
That first Alfa 156 Selespeed needed 0.8 seconds to change gear, and I agree, it can be done faster manually.
However, on the new cars (BMW Ms, and similar) it takes 0.08 sec for a gearchange. No way you can do it faster with the clutch.
And, don't mix 'automatics with manual option' and 'semi-automatics'. I often drive Audi A6 allroad (company car) with 'automatic with manual option' - automatic is faster than manual. The same goes for all of those.

Ah, yeah, damn that _is_ fast... Takes me about 6/10ths.

And no, I didn't mean to confuse old-fashioned automatics with torque converters with the new automatic manuals with computer-controlled clutches.

429CJ · 1 Oct 2002, 17:33 (Ref:393308)

Mmm... what about banning turbochargers and changing for 2.5 litre or 3 litre sixes?

Lee Janotta · 2 Oct 2002, 03:33 (Ref:393643)

Nah, would bring in the wrong class of cars.

Rallying has always primarily been for small family-sized (by Euro standards) sedans.

racer69 · 2 Oct 2002, 09:19 (Ref:393797)

Maybe allow 3 or so litre NA 6s or 8s to run along with the current 2L turbocharged WRCars.

I'd love to see RWD return

429CJ · 4 Oct 2002, 18:41 (Ref:395957)

Wrong class? Well, I don't know. I have always liked larger rally cars, such as Volvo 240 Turbo, Audi 200 quattro, Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 or Subaru Legacy.

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