ERC Classes - what should they be?

[chunder]

I think for me I would bring back GpN. Another thread perhaps.

I know its more expensive, but the caras are readily available worldwide, popular and there are hordes of people who can tune them, work on them supply parts. They are popular in the emerging nations of Eastern Europe and America for that matter.No brainer for me

Plus for those that maybe can't afford a year in Div1 or have totake a breather like perhaps a Pinomaki or Smerud or Nottveit, GpN is far more appealling and attianable than 1600 or rwd class. Yes?

Having to rely on a class where each car has to be "built" seems just daft to me. And it doesnt seem to have taken off nationally as much as it might?

For me, Div1 same, Div2 GpN Lancer/Subaru Cup, Div3 S1600 (loads of cars available now that S2000 is the standard junior class above GpN 1600) NAd then a single make thing like Logans or Swifts as a Cup class.

[Hickey]

possibly right re "another thread", but whilst we are here, that sounds like a massive step backwards to me. I don't want to go the ERC, the premier league of rallycross and see a Group N, Subaru v Mitsi race.

SuperCar and Super1600s def should stay the same and I love watching the RWD cars in TouringCar (albeit a Mitsubishi Colt is not a TouringCar and that name should be changed!), it's just a shame that the numbers are so low. You may have a point about the cars being too bespoke compared to the old Div 2. Could you run the two together? Would there be a massive discrepancy in lap times/power output?

[chunder]

I just feel that rallycross has oftened capitalise on the cast offs of world rallying for years.

It's why the sport boomed post GpB and also GpA as the cars were relatively cheap and available. 2 litre WRC cars are soon to be obselet which might make a load of shells available but the engines are very different. S1600 is getting long in the tooth and we pick up numbers there too. ASwell as Germans and Czechs loving to build Skoda's!!

GpN Is very technical and frankly I would rather see current GpN cars than a few home brewed rwd specials against one or two bespoke Gunnarson built specials that make everything else look silly!

GpN sounds better, is more maketable and has far, far more relevenace in worldwide motorsport.

But, it would be more expensive and a nightmare to police. If you banned anti-lag (on noise grounds) and used a kit ECU that would alleviate some of it.

I just feel, how long do you give a class before you say "this ain't working" They gave GpN 2litre a few years before it ran aground and that was more competitive and far easier to get into.

The lead time for a class where you always have to build a new car is only going to viable if there i a market for secondhand cars, there isnt right now in that class sadly as there simply arent enough of them!

THey tried to replicate Supernational without realising wjhy that works, it works coz the cars are natural to Sweden/Finland/Norway as are the tuners. And they can be used on hillclimbs, rallies etc too.

There is no reason why it shouldnt work here, but it just doesnt seem to hit quite the right spot just yet.

[paul1982]

I think it won't work. Why?
The most rallycross cars are now special build cars and not old rally cars.
first Gr N is also very expensive and if you see the last year of group N in rallycross (1998 i think) you see also startlists from 9 to 11 cars..........

there will always be a class with less competitors than the other class.
when you have the old div2 and div1 the d1a compition was also with less than 10 cars.

on the other site we have been lucky with the division 1 and s1600! if you look back to 1994 - 1996 there were 5 names how you can set in the A-final. maybe 2 in the B-final and in the c-final you saw 2wd cras :S

So enjoy the upcomming weekend! and i think that there will be more touringcars out in the rest of the season (especially in Sweden and Norway)

[mivec]

Originally Posted by Hickey

possibly right re "another thread", but whilst we are here, that sounds like a massive step backwards to me. I don't want to go the ERC, the premier league of rallycross and see a Group N, Subaru v Mitsi race.

SuperCar and Super1600s def should stay the same and I love watching the RWD cars in TouringCar (albeit a Mitsubishi Colt is not a TouringCar and that name should be changed!), it's just a shame that the numbers are so low. You may have a point about the cars being too bespoke compared to the old Div 2. Could you run the two together? Would there be a massive discrepancy in lap times/power output?

Most Touringcars are smal hatchbacks, Polo, Fiesta, 206, 207, Fabia and the Colt. The only 2 "bigger" cars on the entry list this week are "old" Astra's and a Focus. So if the Colt is no touringcar, how do you name the other cars?

[MiniMadness]

Maybe they could just go the simple route. Supercars for 4WD and then the popular S1600s. Then have an open 2WD class. Cars can be FWD or RWD.

[chunder]

Group N was not as established back in 97-98 as it is now. There is a very clear difference and that is at most national levels GpN is the major category, meaning there are a glut of available cars and a cottage industry preparing them.

I agree it is more expensive than rwd, but a hell of a lot of people these days don't have the time or desire to build their own cars. And if you had a more clear progression from 1600, GpN to Div1 that might sttract drivers to do exactly that.

If you said "Right from next year the category will be for FIA homologated GpN cars" and put in some detail about no antilag, standard ECU's, tyres regs etc I am sure you would get decent entries.

The FIA simply tried to reinvent Supernational for the whole of Europe, without realising why that class is so strong and that has nothing to do with rwd and stuff. It's simply based around availability coz in Sweden and Norway there are just as many fwd modified cars based around Honda's Saab's Opel's and VW's. Especially in the smaller modified ranks. It works in Bebenlux too but a lot of the cars are really old Beemers Fords etc, why? COz the tech is there and not expensive.

I love the concept of that new class but so far it seems to be struggling.

Try and think of an area of motorsport that is shedding old cars and use them? That is why Group B worked and to a lesser extent GpA.

And please remember if it were not for the good old YB Cosworth engine even the Supercar class would be struggling for many years! It's been that classes saviour!

Developing a 2 litre N/A Fiesta engine is relatively simple compared to developing a high power turbo unit as most Ford teams would have had to do were it not for the good old Cossie.

[Chessmsport]

The present classes in the ERC are good, the only thing lacking is a 'cheap starter' class. Twice I have started to build an ERC class car, a Metro for Div2A and a 306 for Div2(2 litre GrpN), both times they have decided to stop the class before I completed the cars, neither would of been competitive as 'proper' GrpN is a lot more expensive than people imagine, but I could of had a car for reasonable cost and at least say I have raced in the ERC, thats not possible now.

[chunder]

Good point Chess

IU was not really meaning GpN to be overly cheap, S1600 isnt either as the engines are very highly tuned.

Div2 never used to be cheap either but seemed to take off very well?

Not sure of an answer really, maybe the new 1.6 turbo engine might be usable in a few years

[AndyS]

I think the current ERC classes are okay but could be better. From what I can gather Super 1600 and Super Touring are fairly comparable in terms of build costs. Seems a bit daft not having a cheaper class to provide a proper ladder for drivers rather than Super Touring. I can see what they tried to do with Super Touring but it's just not quite there yet.

I can see what Chunder is saying about using the older rally cars as in the coming years there will be a lot of WRC and S1600 machinery on the market and presumable it will get cheaper. Group N goes from the British Rally Championship next year, not sure about other countries though. Certainly in the UK you would expect to see more of these coming up for sale. Personally, I would have little interest in Group N but it's each to their own. The other motorsport that has large changes on the way is touring car racing, Super 2000 coming to an end with NGTC and 1600 turbo's in WTCC. Don't know whether it's at all viable to convert them for rallycross but just a thought. They would be too expensive as it stands now, but again as they become obsolete the prices should fall.

I see Rallycross as a sport in it's own right as opposed to an extension of rallying. If as appears to be the case that the sport sees itself as a sport in it's own right then I think the FIA could really have come with a slightly more exciting class structure, but that's the FIA all over. For some reason they seem to constantly try to dumb down regulations.

[chunder]

You can see yourself in your own light and I think some people involed in rallycross do

But the figures that watch and sgtuff dsont really back that up.

Hance why I believe cowtowing on the back of rallying is no bad thing, its far more popular after all! And therefore more machines and backup for rallycross.

I agree that rallycross SHOULD be standalone and it used to be, but these days you have to look at every avenue to expand your genre.

I didnt know about BRC losing GpN, what are they replacing it with?

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by chunder

I didnt know about BRC losing GpN, what are they replacing it with?

As of next year the BRC will only be open to homologated two-wheel drive cars (with a maximum engine capacity of 2.0L I think?).

The aim is to lower costs, thus bringing more teams and manufacturers in.

[FIRE]

I would like to see bigger cars in TouringCars class, so cars like Ford Mondeo, Volvo S40, Skoda Octavia and BMW 3-Series.

[Darren Wilcox]

Modern Gp'N cars can be built for a lot less than a competitive 2 ltr touring car at ERC level. Please note i said competitive, not just a G3 escort reshelled into a new shape fiesta. And as chunder has said there are masses of them available on the secondhand market. they are also cheaper to run than a S1600 car, i dont know wether or not it is the way forward, but deinately not as expensive as people seem to be making out.

[Darren Wilcox]

Just to add I worked with and ran super 1600 cars at british and junior world championship level, for the likes of Wilk's, Meeke, Duval etc and if they were a cheap alternative i'd be running one now.

[chunder]

On reflection I don't thinik S1600 cars are that cheap! Seeing the budget it tkaes to run Bakkerud and Rakmawotosit, it seems comparable to WRC!

A lot fot eh guys there are running sort of hybrod S1600 cars, the Polo was never that good in S1600 yet has always been OK in RX, the Skoda's are now being developed into a decent car Godfreys Ford I imagine is all home brewed.

Perhaps only the Citroen and opel cars are pure S1600 like Renault, no one runs a Suzuki which was decent and Semtanaa must be 1600 spec Puma?

At last someone sees sense with GpN aswell, yes if you want to run IRC or WRC or ntional level rally spec the car is 100k, but for rallycross with sensible regs for ECU, anti lag and various electronics I cant see why it can't work

[Darren Wilcox]

I car'nt understand why there ar'nt more pumas to be honest in S1600, must be the cheapest form of entry into a competitive S1600 car, as they were the only car to ever be built within the 100,000 dollar budget, £15-20k would buy you one now and you could probably sell £2-3k of bits off that to convert it to a rallycross car. I'm sure this is less money than some are spending on cars that ar'nt competitive, a tarmac spec car had 210bhp possibly more now.

Back to Gp'N though i don't think you could place restrictions on them, as this just makes policing it harder, run within homologation end of story, no if's but's or maybe's if it aint in the papers you car'nt do it.

[chunder]

Thing is because I guess rallycross rega are a little freer I think they are running more power now, rumours are the Clios are over 225bhp! Thats serious engine development

And you all can hear how high Godfrey's Fiesta is revving, far higher than the rest!

I guess the issue with GpN is that just like Opland in the old days, you are always going to get a guy buying everything from Ralliart, all new, spending more on that than say a Koutny or Valle or Croon or someone spends on a Supercar, just to pot hunt and win?

But I guess buying a Gunnarson Fiesta is much the same, you still have to drive it, be quicker than everyone and push harder to win

[Darren Wilcox]

Yeh i must admit i'm not sure on how open the reg's are for s1600 in rallycross, but the Puma i'm sure could make maybe 215-220 if you are allowed to use the eight injector set up from the kit car. The Renault's always were the best cars with the huge development budget they had. though as you have said i'm suprised we have not seen any suzuki's out there yet as the latest swifts were the dog's wotsits. I'm not sure were they get some of the prices from though for S1600 cars when you see them for sale on rallycross.com K&G have a fully rebuilt C2 rallycar ready to go for £40k yet theres one on there for 85k euros in rallycross trim

[chunder]

Tell me about it

Leganov was trying to sell that Polo for over 100k, though it did hvae lots of spares and parts