So long detroit, for now

[rotorrex7]

Motorsport.com are reporting that the belle isle grand prix has been cancelled for 2009 and are suggesting that long beach and st.pete could be next. The massive reliance on corporate sponsorshjip is what caused its downfall as detroit city is really feeling the pich.

[mountainstar]

St. Pete is pretty much floated by Honda and we know where they stand right now on motorsport.

Long Beach is still owned by Kalkoven and Forsythe. Kalkoven isn't too pleased with tg right now for the Surfers Paradise fumbling stunt that cost him his sponsor and his whole team could fold. You never know what those two will do especially in the current economic times.

A lot of the oval tracks aren't pleased with the irl either, so hopefully they'll bail as well.

[rotorrex7]

so you'd rather see american open wheel racing die?

[Tim Northcutt]

Not necessarily, rotorrex7....I can't speak for mountainstar, but from my years on this forum, I know that he really enjoys open wheel racing

However, mountainstar was a Champ Car die-hard, so he is not exactly the President of the Tony George Fan Club...guess it's just a personal thing with him...but he has a right to express his views, just like everyone else...I personally enjoy his perspective...cheerleaders on a Forum would make this a boring place....don't take offense, mountainstar...I'ts just my take and it is nothing personal...

Here is the link to the story in this morning's Indianapolis Star...

http://www.indystar.com/article/200...065/1004/SPORTS

Basically, the corporate support for the event was heavily weighted in the auto industry via both manufacturers and suppliers, etc., and they are taking a tough hit everywhere, but especially in Michigan.

Could St. Pete and Long Beach be next???

Honda has been cutting back other motorsports $$$, so St. Pete could be another one to fall, and I believe that the SoCal Toyota dealers are the big $$$ backers for KK and GF for Long Beach so it, too, could be in jeopardy.

Guess we'll find out sometime between now and April on both...

All of motorsports is going to take a big hit in this economy...even NASCAR...

[broadrun96]

Over in the sportscar side I suggested Long Beach and/or St Pete could disappear but apparently their thoughts are NO WAY. Is the IRL really strong enough to keep the events around if Honda was to withdrawal or cut sponsorship? And Toyota is claimed to have their first ever loss for a year for March 08-09 so could they start cutting as well?

[johntt]

The Toyota Long Beach sponsorship is from the local dealers not the company itself IIRC.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by johntt

The Toyota Long Beach sponsorship is from the local dealers not the company itself IIRC.

That is my understanding, too....But the dealers can't move any inventory in this credit-tight climate...they are among the worst off in the auto industry equation right now...some dealerships are closing their doors.

[Aloysius]

I know it's not a good sign for the sport, but if any circuit had to go, who can say they are sad that it's the Belle Isle track? Now if Long Beach went that would be a different matter.I just really hope this isn't a trend.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Over in the sportscar side I suggested Long Beach and/or St Pete could disappear but apparently their thoughts are NO WAY. Is the IRL really strong enough to keep the events around if Honda was to withdrawal or cut sponsorship? And Toyota is claimed to have their first ever loss for a year for March 08-09 so could they start cutting as well?

They already are cutting I can tell you that first hand.

[theracegypsy]

My info from elsewhere is this could well snowball into most street races disappearing. Realise they are expensive to put on, and rely on sponsor money for that up front cost. No-one in the corporate game is wanting to upset their shareholders or bailout deals at this point in time.

Personally I suspect the only one of the IRL/ALMS street races to survive will be Toronto.
Ah well, had to rush round this time last year looking for races to work in this year, looks like it will be the same for next year

[DanicaFan]

The IRL will fill that weekend with another race. Im thinking that the IRL will end up at Birmingham, Alabama, which is Barber Motorsports Park. It's a cool road course. They tested down there this year and are going to test down there next year (2009) in March. So the possibility of them having the race there is very good.

[Tim Northcutt]

The straights are too short at barber, and the track is only 40-45 ft. wide.

It'll be more boring to watch than Infineon has been.

[johntt]

Originally Posted by DanicaFan

The IRL will fill that weekend with another race. Im thinking that the IRL will end up at Birmingham, Alabama, which is Barber Motorsports Park. It's a cool road course. They tested down there this year and are going to test down there next year (2009) in March. So the possibility of them having the race there is very good.

Barber is too twisty for cars, like Valencia, Misano and Catalunya its more of a bike track than a car track.

[theracegypsy]

Lot of difference between testing and racing. The track is good for setting a car when out by itself, but racing - No way, too narrow and too twisty for the pack without a huge attrition rate. Like John says, it's built as a bike track.

[Leighton Irwin]

I've never see bit it sounds a bit like Nelson Ledges as far as being a good test track. We used to test Atlantics at the Ledges. It had a bit of everything so you could work on set ups for different types of road courses and even street courses. However it would not have worked as a race track for even Atlantics let alone any thing bigger.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Leighton Irwin

I've never see bit it sounds a bit like Nelson Ledges as far as being a good test track. We used to test Atlantics at the Ledges. It had a bit of everything so you could work on set ups for different types of road courses and even street courses. However it would not have worked as a race track for even Atlantics let alone any thing bigger.

I heard something about them rebuilding and cleaning up Nelson Ledges.

[fomoco]

Originally Posted by rotorrex7

so you'd rather see american open wheel racing die?

ROTO, a false world you live in, TG has all but decided upon the death knell of Open wheelers inthe Us of A. Look at the time line and follow it closeley. TG didn't want to share or be part of, but control it to his way.

The runs at at USAC, CART , CHAMPCAR were all made in the the belief that open wheelers in the states revoleved around Indionapolis.

I sorry, but TG has ruined an oppurtunity to take on F1 and A1Gp and beat them at there own game. Remember, the Nations Cup, etc all gone, all that is left is the bottle of milk.

Drink up Tony

[Matt]

Originally Posted by theracegypsy

Lot of difference between testing and racing. The track is good for setting a car when out by itself, but racing - No way, too narrow and too twisty for the pack without a huge attrition rate. Like John says, it's built as a bike track.

Grand Am seems to do fine there.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by fomoco

ROTO, a false world you live in, TG has all but decided upon the death knell of Open wheelers inthe Us of A. Look at the time line and follow it closeley. TG didn't want to share or be part of, but control it to his way.

Name me a single person that runs any motorsport organization in the world larger than club-level that is different and is also effective.

CART in the early-to-mid 1990s was being killed by Roger Penske and Carl Haas and by foreign ridebuyers that chased all the fans away. Tony George did little more than make effective what the majority of American racefans already knew.


As for Detroit going, it's a shame when events are canceled. But I hated the race and I've never met anyone in real life (not on the internet) that ever cared for it. If they replace it, I hope they're shrewd about it and don't do something bizarro.

[mirwin]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

CART in the early-to-mid 1990s was being killed by Roger Penske and Carl Haas and by foreign ridebuyers that chased all the fans away. Tony George did little more than make effective what the majority of American racefans already knew.

Sounds a lot like the current IRL.

[johntt]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

CART in the early-to-mid 1990s was being killed by Roger Penske and Carl Haas and by foreign ridebuyers that chased all the fans away. Tony George did little more than make effective what the majority of American racefans already knew.

Can't have those damn furriners coming in and doing better than the 'muricans can we? CART Indycar was attracting ex-F1 drivers (hardly ridebuyers), and posed a threat to both F1 and Nascar.

Such a threat it posed, that at the time Bernie Ecclestone decided to ban F1 drivers from competing the Indy 500 as a one-off and banned CART from any of the road courses that F1 used.

[DanicaFan]

I would like to see Phoenix or Michigan take the place of Detroit.

The reason Michigan wasnt on the 2008 schedule was due to a scheduling conflict with Mid-Ohio. I was hoping after they moved some dates around on venues for 2009, we would see Michigan back on the schedule.

[Teretonga]

What the series needs is something that will bring back the emphasis on the 'American traditions of open wheel racing.
It will not be a total solution but there should be something the public can relate to.
500 mile races are one of those things.
Keep the present variety in events, that is essential, but lets try to get something similar to the heydays in place. One of those things was the triple crown, so a 'series within a series' of 500 milers would be useful.
Michigan and California are the logical places to add to Indy and three 500 milers in a season is about right.
Obviously the races are going to have to make money so it will come back to tiacket prices and promotion. Vegas is an option for the third 500 miler but I wouldn't have four of them.

It may require some real investment in the series to make it happen but at the moment the IRL series seems simply a means to providing a field for the Indy 500. There doesn't seem to be any real interest in promoting the series or open wheel as a whole. Everything swings around the Indy 500. It is self serving and unless there is a broader view open wheel will not grow into any greater significance than the one race-Indy 500 focus it now has.

[Purist]

Flyin Ryan, your bit about foreign drivers doesn't hold water, and even if it did, not even Roger Penske could have saved the situation.

First off, CART was on as big a high as it ever had been in 1994, so it was hardly dying in the early 1990s. As for foreign drivers, there were quite a number of them who had been in CART for quite some time before the split was even annouced. You have drivers such as Teo Fabi, Derek Daly, Bernard and Michel Jordain, Hector Rebaque, Josele Garza, Roberto Guerrero, Roberto Moreno, Jacques Villeneuve (elder), Nigel Mansell, Mario Andretti, Geoff Brabham, Eliseo Salazar, Raul Boesel, Nelson Piquet, and Emerson Fittipaldi in CART before its decline. And at the very least, Mario and Emmo were quite well received in this country.

Even if there was some validity to the argument, there were so many top-line drivers who retired in roughly 1990-94 that there was no way to replace all of that talent solely with Americans. You had the departure of Roger and Rick Mears, Al Unser Sr., Mario Andretti, Emerson Fittipaldi, Kevin Kogan, Tom Sneva, Johnny Rutherford, Danny Sullivan, AJ Foyt, Chip Ganassi, Tony Bettenhousen Jr., etc. That's a lot of frontline drivers to replace in a rather short period, and top teams don't just hire ride-buyers, but go for the real talent, because to retain their big sponsor support they MUST be running up front.

I'd agree Teretonga on the Triple Crown, though personally I'd go with Indy, Michigan, and Pocono for the 500-milers.

[Matt]

Mario is an American, not a foreign driver. :P