[Rules] Spare Cars

[olly83]

I dont know if this has discussed elsewhere so forgive me if I'm going over old ground

I've just watched highlights of the 1998 Belgian GP famous for the huge pile up on the first lap.

Obviously spare cars have been outlawed for cost cutting reasons but I'm sure I heard it mentioned during last week's GP that the teams bring more than enough parts to a race to build another car

If that accident happened today, the race would still be stopped and restarted once the clear up had been completed but with 10-11 cars missing? what if more cars were written off?

It's not inconcievable that in a worst case scenario you could have a situation similar to USA 2005 where only a few cars take the start.

Given that the car parts exist at the track, why don't the rules allow them to be constructed, potentially saving F1 from a massive red face in the event of a 1998 style accident?

[GolddustMini]

because even when Tcars were allowed, the team would still have enough spare parts (tub and all) to create another spare car if required. if all the current spares were bolted to a chassis then this would again lead to problems, the parts are much more usable if they;re not all bolted together.

whilst yes if a big shunt like 1998 were to happen again there wouldnt be many cars on the grid, it wouldnt be as farsically planned as indy '05 it wouldnt really be such a red face as the full complement of cars would have started the race, but have been eliminated.

i however feel that the freight cost of taking an extra chassis isnt that high when you consider everything else they take, so probably makes little difference overall in that respect, however having it prepped and ready to go at a moments notice is what will add to the cost

[olly83]

Originally Posted by GolddustMini

i however feel that the freight cost of taking an extra chassis isnt that high when you consider everything else they take, so probably makes little difference overall in that respect, however having it prepped and ready to go at a moments notice is what will add to the cost

Ok but I do feel that not preparing for worst case scenarios is rather self defeating and could be setting F1 up for a fall.

Whilst the instances of multi car pile ups are thankfully rare, it does make sense to me to allow the teams and competitors a second chance in the event of a first lap crash, not to mention providing the fans with the opportunity to see their heroes who they have paid through the nose to see.

I suspect that part of the reason the Tcars are not allowed is to remove the pressure to red flag a race and to keep it running to the TV schedules. Many more accidents are covered by safety cars than there used to be.

Back to costs, limiting motorhome size, cutting driver wages, not introducing things like KERS etc...would have a greater impact on bringing costs down, I would imagine than banning spare cars.

[TrevorSteggles]

The problem is not building a spare car itis the time it would take, plus all the rules regarding engine changes/gearboxes etc. Maybe we should expect the 20 best drivers in the world to be able to drive without crashing into each other!

[olly83]

Originally Posted by TrevorSteggles

The problem is not building a spare car itis the time it would take, plus all the rules regarding engine changes/gearboxes etc. Maybe we should expect the 20 best drivers in the world to be able to drive without crashing into each other!

That's certainly true although ignoring the engine/gearbox issue for a moment, the teams are banned from working on the cars after Quali, maybe the spare car could be constructed then. After all, teams used to strip 2 race cars and rebuild them between quali and the race

I guess the engine/gearbox issue could only be solved by getting rid of the restrictions (not that I have a problem with that!)

And as for not crashing,well that's never gonna happen when you're racing 700bhp cars in the wet although I must say they have been fairly well behaved so far this year!!

Welcome to Ten Tenths BTW!!!

[jab]

Originally Posted by TrevorSteggles

Maybe we should expect the 20 best drivers in the world to be able to drive without crashing into each other!

That's funny, because the pile-up at Spa was caused by a Ferrari driver hitting a McLaren driver, 2 of the best drivers in F1 at the time

[GolddustMini]

surely the Tcar idea only benefitted one of the teams 2 drivers anyway (the one it was set up for). and in the case of spa 4 teams could only field one car at the restart because of this.


it was never a very fair way of doing it because certain teams favoured no1 drivers. the only fair way of ensuring a teams drivers are treated equally in such a situation is to not have a Tcar at all.

surely if the teams were to prepare properly for such a situation then they would need multiple spare cars,

i dont recall 1998 being a letdown (all but 4 cars made the restart) or in anyway similar to the indy feasco, after all what happened at indy was a preplanned retirement of vehicles (due to the tyres and the FIA not allowing circuit changed to ensure that all cars could take part on safety grounds but we dont want to get into the whys and wherefores of that race here), im sure if all of those cars had been wiped out in a multicar collision then the reaction would have been very different. Indy wouldnt have been altered if there were Tcars,


thankfully the events of such massive pileups are quite rare, one day it might happen and we loose 6-7-8 cars in a pileup but thats racing. and redflags dont happen very often either (the directors prefering to carry on under safetycar) so the ability to use a Tcar doesnt occur very often

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by olly83

I suspect that part of the reason the Tcars are not allowed is to remove the pressure to red flag a race and to keep it running to the TV schedules. Many more accidents are covered by safety cars than there used to be.

Due to the introduction of the post-qualifying parc fermé, that pressure was removed in 2003. Drivers using the T-car had to start from the pit lane.

[AJLav]

Everyone could petition the FIA to let F1 start on the GT front stretch, and we wouldn't have to worry about a log jam into the hairpin at Spa... It might even help some get a good start since it is down hill.... And I'm in for bringing back the third car, even if its just for testing purposes on friday's with a new/young driver like before.

just a thought

[Super Hans]

In itself, the likelihood of such an accident occuring is probably not high enough to warrant the return of spare cars.

[olly83]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

In itself, the likelihood of such an accident occuring is probably not high enough to warrant the return of spare cars.

I guess that's the bottom line but I do think that the exuse of cost cutting is rather ridiculous given the vast amounts of money spent elsewhere.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by olly83

I guess that's the bottom line but I do think that the exuse of cost cutting is rather ridiculous given the vast amounts of money spent elsewhere.

I think cost cutting are illusionary and therefore ridiculous for any rule change. It should be preferred that teams spend their money on cars in stead of their luxury motorhomes.

[zac510]

Originally Posted by olly83

If that accident happened today, the race would still be stopped and restarted once the clear up had been completed but with 10-11 cars missing? what if more cars were written off?

I think Formula 1 has been quite lucky not to have this situation happen since the no T-car rule was introduced. I say lucky because if it did happen it would be a major embarassment, as you imply yourself! As like Indy, the public would be upset and the public would want to knwo why the rules are against them seeing a race.

Then again the drivers tend not to crash on the first corner as often as the used to and the Race Control are more inclined to Safety Car it than restart it.

The current engine rules (if applied to gearboxes too) would seem to facilitate a T-car being prepped - the T-car would just need to carry a fresh engine and gearbox which would go onto the driver's allocation.

[duke_toaster]

Whilst there is a risk of a huge T1 pileup in F1, there is equally one in the BTCC, WTCC, DTM, GP2 etc ... and they don't have spare cars either.

[GolddustMini]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Whilst there is a risk of a huge T1 pileup in F1, there is equally one in the BTCC, WTCC, DTM, GP2 etc ... and they don't have spare cars either.

i was thinking the same whilst doing the washing up (i know i know...)

[zac510]

The tin tops are a bit hardier than the F1 cars

[GolddustMini]

Originally Posted by zac510

The tin tops are a bit hardier than the F1 cars

but due to the nature a front end shunt in an f1 car is pobably less damaging to the main tub than a front end in a tin top where its quite likely that the entire chassis will need to be jigged, which may mean that a driver has to sit out a race due to damage recieved in a previous qualifying/race.

[zac510]

I was thinking of wheels and wings being knocked off.

[GolddustMini]

rubbing is racing....!

[olly83]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Whilst there is a risk of a huge T1 pileup in F1, there is equally one in the BTCC, WTCC, DTM, GP2 etc ... and they don't have spare cars either.

If I spent £20-30 on a ticket and the field were obliterated in a first lap accident I'd probably be a bit disappointed but then think these things happen and catch the next race (in the case of domestic series)

With F1 I'd have saved up and spent £godknowshowmuch (best part of £400 for monaco) and I would be pretty fed up if half the field were out at T1 without the chance of a restart.

As I said before, F1 budgets are still astronomical by the standards of other series yet surely having a spare car available in emergencies won't break the bank but could save some red faces and short changed punters.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

You could allow the third car back for friday testing, and then let the teams use that car as the spare car. Lets teams try new drivers during the season despite the testing ban (though I still think you could allow them about four or five rookie days), and smaller teams could put a driver with cash in the car to make it worthwile. Even if the friday driver bins the car the team should be able to complete it to sunday in most cases...

[csirl]

FIA regulations state that drivers may have no more than two cars available for use at any one time. Spare cars are no longer allowed, though teams may bring additional chassis which can be built up in the event of a race chassis being damaged beyond repair.

If a driver switches car between qualifying and the race then he must start the race from the pit lane. A change of car is not allowed once the race has started.

From F1 website.

I believe that most teams bring 3 chassis to each race.