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28 May 2012, 18:07 (Ref:3080719) | #1 | ||
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Dario, legend or not?
Just curious as to what you all think, i would hardly call myself an indycar nut, i make a point of watching the 500, i will happily watch a race if i catch it at the right time and i always check the results when they are out but what do the real indy fans think, can Dario be mentioned in the same breath as your Foyt's, Unsers, Andretti's? I would have to say yes, but what do i know.
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28 May 2012, 18:53 (Ref:3080732) | #2 | ||
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He has stacked some very impressive results and can still deliver as the field returns to pre-split depth in terms of driver and team talent. I think he has seen an explosion of results when he is in one of the five best cars on the grid, but he did that against a stiffer field than Scheckter, Wheldon and even Dixie have managed in the same situation. I think he might be the best driver of this era given his ability to put together results. He can win the 500, he can bring home a title, no one delivers like Franchitti does. I'm not sure if you put the entire field in a Porsche Cup car or a Formula Ford that Dario would have perhaps even a top five lap time, but Dario is a fabulous race driver.
His legend will grow after he retires. But how big his name becomes in the annals of Indianapolis 500 lore is dependent on how this era is seen. Are we in the enlightenment? Or his he the dominant power in the dark ages? I love Dario as a man (he was my favorite driver outside Greg Moore when I started watching CART in the late-nineties, and he was Greg's best pal) and I am really taken by his nose for the front of the field. He has proven to me he can win in real cars (CART cars of the 90's) and he has proven he can beat tough fields in the immensely difficult Indianapolis 500 (this year). He is a student of the sport and like Marino is a total history buff so what isn't to like? His goofy hair and his over the top wife? But seriously, Dario is brilliant. Like I say, his legacy hinges on how history views his period at Indianapolis and in open-wheel generally. Chris |
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28 May 2012, 19:34 (Ref:3080750) | #3 | ||
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Considering what he has achieved; yes.
However, people don't normally become legends while in their prime I think. He'll 'become' a legend after he retires and the new crop are still compared with him. |
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28 May 2012, 19:41 (Ref:3080755) | #4 | ||
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Yes. His face is featured on the Borg Warner Trophy, so yes. Everyone on there enjoys immortality. The face on the trophy is a simple concept but was a great innovation. It gives whoever won that race legendary status.
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28 May 2012, 23:17 (Ref:3080870) | #5 | ||
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These blokes become legends after they retire - give him 10/15/20 years when the "legends" today have all passed on...
Will Sebby Bourdais be remembered as a legend for winning 4 Champcar titles |
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29 May 2012, 00:35 (Ref:3080881) | #6 | |||
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The fact that he is on the Borg Warner trophy certainly means he will be remembered though. Those who said that are correct. Legend? We'll see. Chris |
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29 May 2012, 01:25 (Ref:3080892) | #7 | ||
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2 of his 3 "500" victories where when the series (IRL & Champcar) had merged back to 1, not much more he can do...
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29 May 2012, 04:21 (Ref:3080925) | #8 | |||
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Chris |
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29 May 2012, 07:23 (Ref:3080965) | #9 | ||
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Absolutley, when he's no longer racing, it'll be nice to recall his achievements. At the moment though it's more of 'Oh look, Dario wins. AGAIN. yawn.'
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29 May 2012, 07:55 (Ref:3080985) | #10 | |
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Dario is ceratainly the cream of the crop right now along with Power. He has done everything lately that he can. Like Bourdais, you can only race against the people you can race against. He performed admirably in the late 1990s. Where Bourdais foray into F1 will always be held against him, Franchitti in Nascar will be the same.
His moment in history will be dictated by what else happened in the sport, which is a shame. While he and Bourdais could have been good enough to be held amongst the best ever, the state of the sport when they raced will probably mean they won't be held in as higher regard as they should. |
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29 May 2012, 08:57 (Ref:3081015) | #11 | |
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Dario has proven himself over a long period of time. He was right up there pushing JPM when CART was at a peak and he is showing his class and experience in a, no doubt, less strong category today.
I think back to his less impressive years (he never seemed to do much at a dominant AGR for a while, NASCAR was awful) but still I don't think this can tarnish his legacy for me. He is simply Dario Franchitti, three times Indianapolis 500 winner. How nice to say that about someone so in love with the sport's rich history as well. |
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29 May 2012, 10:23 (Ref:3081062) | #12 | ||
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Amazing. When I was was at work today, I thought "When I get onto the computer I'll ask the Yanks on 10 10ths if they think Franchitti is a legit 3-time 500 winner" and then, I see this thread! I'm not sure he'd even win one 500 in any other period of the race's history, at least recent history. Just think, it's pretty good odds he'll win 5 500s!
As far as the Indy 500 specifically is concerned, from what I know of the race, despite winning as many as Booby Unser and Johnny Rutherford, I'm not sure if you can rate him as highly as those two, even some single 500 winners. I would even put Castroneves in in the same boat. Having said that, it's not their doing that their careers have run at the same time as the embarrassment called the IRL. Both are guns. I think if you have to ask the question, the answer is automatically a "no". |
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29 May 2012, 11:07 (Ref:3081093) | #13 | ||
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Dario is absolutly a legend for me...3 Indy 500, 4 IndyCar titles, 1 Daytona 24h...he showed he is fast in the ovals, in the road courses, in the street races...he showed he is fast fast with IndyCars and Sport Cars...his numbers and his performances show he is the best of our times...
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29 May 2012, 11:39 (Ref:3081108) | #14 | ||
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Of course, I want him to win the Daytona 500 as well as the 24 Hours of Le Mans. |
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29 May 2012, 12:26 (Ref:3081139) | #15 | ||
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I also hope for him to win a lot of races...but if his career ended today, his palmareas already spoke for him...
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30 May 2012, 04:28 (Ref:3081601) | #16 | |||
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On the broader question, no, he's not Mario or A.J. and he never will be. There's a reason that Mario Andretti and A.J. Foyt across the broad motorsports spectrum of today are more thought of than Richard Petty, and that's because Petty was dominant in one form of the sport where during his prime he had the best or near-best car, and he never left that form of the sport. Mario and A.J. in contrast won in multiple forms of the sport, and in a lot of instances as outsiders. Mario and A.J. won Daytona 500s back before the Daytona 500 became a cluster on determining a winner. Dario flamed out of NASCAR in four months. That's not entirely Dario's fault, racing has changed to where people focus on one thing and that's it. Which is fine I guess, but in turn that means this generation's drivers in my mind of almost all series cannot compare to past generations. That's why I think so much of Robby Gordon. This man has won SCORE off-road races in Baja, CART races before the split for a B-level team in Walker, NASCAR races for B-level teams, sportscar races. He's as close as you will get today to a multi-talented driver doing everything at the same time unless you go into drivers that have done career changes in the middle, and the best of those for American-based auto racing I think has to be Tony Stewart. Dario for his career has done really good in Indycar and famously sucked in NASCAR and hasn't done much else. Tony won three USAC titles in the same year, something Mario nor A.J. nor anyone else had ever come close to doing before, then was the best early IRL guy by far when his motor would not blow up (there was one race I remember at I think Loudon where he had lapped everyone twice and then the car quit), and then he went into NASCAR and won 3 Cup titles including one as a team owner. To bring the point home he did the best ever Memorial Day Double by a driver getting 6th at Indy and 3rd at Charlotte in 2001, being the only time anyone ever completed all 1100 miles in all the attempts. Last edited by Flyin Ryan; 30 May 2012 at 04:56. |
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30 May 2012, 04:54 (Ref:3081606) | #17 | |||
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I also counter it with the IRL formula of cars is notably easier to drive relative to the CART and USAC era cars. Dario is the best of his generation and I contend that had he been born twenty years earlier he would have legendary status. I think he will be remembered as the best of his era but will have the frustrating asterisk that is no fault of his own. Seabass, Dario, Helio, Kenny Brack, Will Power... They all get a raw deal in how they will be viewed, I imagine. Another frustrating example is Greg Moore. A remarkable talent in CART who was on his way to drive for the Captain, perhaps a CART title, a 500 win and a Formula 1 ride with McLaren before the worst possible thing happened. Despite agreement from CART fans that he was a legend and one of AOWR's greats, there is a large contingent of fans who don't see Moore as a legend because he never made it to the Speedway. Legacies are victims of this turbulent era in open-wheel, it's quite unfortunate. Dario is a winner, that is how I will remember him forever; he won races, big races and was tough to beat. Chris |
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30 May 2012, 05:13 (Ref:3081614) | #18 |
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When in think of cross-generational comparisons, I think of two battling viewpoints: rose tinted glasses and the recency effect.
On one hand, things in the past are often spun into epic tales, with legendary heroes, and romance. The fact that the majority of the world are baby boomers in my eyes means that things from their halcyon days are often venerated in pop culture. On the other hand, we always like to declare something we have just seen "the best ever" or the "GOAT," and what have you. I am far from an expert on open wheel racing, but results matter. Dario has won the Indy 500 3 times, and he could tie or even break the all time mark in his career depending on how much longer he decides to race and how much longer he is competitive. He also has 4 titles and could add to that tally. If this man is not considered a legend 20 or 30 years from now when the children of the baby boomers who watched Dario race in their youth pine for their own halcyon days and look through their rose tinted glasses, then something will be seriously wrong with them. In short, even though I don't know too much about this kind of racing, yes, I think Dario is a legend. |
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30 May 2012, 05:34 (Ref:3081620) | #19 | |||||||
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So in 1987, the 105% standard used at Indianapolis this past weekend in the race if applied to 1987 Long Beach qualifying, only 14 cars would've started this race. (Yes, I know road courses are normally 107%, just doing like for like.) Sneva started 10th, ran pretty much an error-free race and finished 3rd at 104%. The 104% qualifier at Indy this past weekend would've started 31st. Quote:
Can you also please elaborate on where this driving knowledge you have comes from? I take it you've driven all three eras of cars to make such a broad statement. Seriously, what the eff does Power get a raw deal on? He's done so much more in the past three years than he ever did before for Team Australia or whatever that team was called that only existed to have a loss-making event halfway across the world for 90% of the teams in the series. The man is widely held to be the best road course racer in the series. This is why I hate interacting with internet racefans and the guys in teams I talk to are so correct on boards like this on the complete lack of attachment to reality as people seem to have grasped on to some mythological account of events that never existed outside of 173 people on a message board inventing a story to self-satisfy themselves. It's people like this on the internet is why politics is so horrible nowadays. They don't like reality so what they do is form their own account of events to create a reality that makes them feel better inside. Now back to Power, he raced in ChampCar where there were maybe 5-6 drivers of note and the rest were ride buyers and lost almost all the time to Bourdais. Bourdais' race results in ChampCar are about as meaningful as the early IRL if you want to rank eras because that's the level of competition was up against. To provide a sportscar analogy, Bourdais winning races in ChampCar is like giving the factory Audi LMPs credit for beating an Intersport Lola. If you beat a bunch of ride buyers you didn't accomplish anything by definition, because if their driving skill was worth anything, they would get paid. Quote:
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Last edited by Flyin Ryan; 30 May 2012 at 05:48. |
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30 May 2012, 05:51 (Ref:3081628) | #20 | |||
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30 May 2012, 07:41 (Ref:3081679) | #21 | ||
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As much as I dislike Dario, I think he'll easily be considered legend status once he retires. Come on, he's won 4 titles and 3 Indy 500s. Most of the 'legends' haven't had that much success.
What frustrates me is how close he's been on winning ALL those titles, and when it came down to the end of the year, his opposition got rotten luck. 2007: Dixon runs out of fuel on the last corner of the last lap. 2007 Indy 500: just happens to not pit when everyone else does and the rain comes, ending the race early. 2009: can't stay with Dixon (leading the points) and Briscoe so only strategy is to run the whole race in conservation mode hoping for no yellows. How many oval races in the history of IRL have we got a yellow-less race? 3? Well, this one went without a yellow. 2010: should easily be Power's title, but he hits the wall in the final race with a big points lead, handing the title to Dario. 2010 Indy 500: well this one he did actually deserve, he dominated it. 2011: again should be Power's title, but pit stop error and some miraculous pit stop from Ganassi put Dario into the lead and no one could pass. 2012 Indy 500: well Ganassi did have the fastest car, but at the end it was only Dario right-place right-time that had him ahead of Sato and Dixon. Dixon was just as fast. Ultimately of course a championship is year long, and Dario had to put himself within the points lead into the final round. He's undoubtedly one of the best in Indycar at the moment. Both he and Dixon seem to leave Rahal and Kimbell in the distance, so they're both very good drivers. He dominated Paul Tracy at Team Green in 1998 winning 3 races and 5 poles while Tracy's best result was a 5th, no poles. In 1999 he was extremely close to beating Montoya in a far faster Ganassi. Montoya was the fastest that year, easily, so Franchitti was very lucky that so much just kept going wrong for Montoya to even give him a shot at the title. He seemed to have a bit of a career slump after that. Struggled in 2000 to 2002, maybe from that pre-season crash, then another big crash in 2003 which put him on the sidelines. Kanaan and Wheldon well and try owned him in 2004, 2005 and 2006. He was kind of always third best at Andretti/Green. Hell even the massively overrated (imo) Marco Andretti beat him in 2006 in the same car. It's not till 2007 that he found form again and has won ever since, but not necessarily the best in any of those years. To be honest as I'm looking over his stats, he might not even have a drive anymore if he didn't suddenly start winning again in 2007. I'd be interested in finding out from him why he struggled for 2000-2006. Maybe it was a few big crashes that kept setting him back? I don't think you can count his Nascar run at all. Nascar has very little to do with driving skill. I really rate Tony Stewart, and Jeff Gordon was great in his day, but Montoya and Ambrose are probably the best raw talent in Nascar at the moment. Put Jimmie Johnson or Dale Jr into F1 and see if they can win 7 races against Michael Schumacher. It would be a joke. So Dario struggling in Nascar means nothing. Just looking at his pre-America stats, Jan Magnussen owned him 1994 in the best car in British F3, winning 14 times to Dario's single win. And then Bernd Schneider owned him in DTM 1995, but then Bernd was quite a lot more experienced. He did get a bit closer to Bernd in 1996 though. He was very average in 1997 in his first year in Cart and did come on strong until the end 1997. Very much and on and off career for Franchitti actually, but he seems to be on right now with Ganassi. |
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30 May 2012, 08:35 (Ref:3081712) | #22 | ||
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Some counterarguments - in '07, Dixon needed a bit more fuel. How close was Dario to him when he ran out? I saw that race live and flipped out. I know Dixon just ran out, but honestly if the situation was so tight, a quarter second or something more of fuel coulda lost it for him anyway. OK a stretch, but just illustrating how things can be skewed. The Indy that year his team/he could well have made a strategy call based on data that the race would be canned, so he may not have just happened not to pit. 2010, Will Power crashed; end of story. You crash, you lose. This year, Dario coulda been at the right place at the right time due to cunning, timing, and strategy. Dario seems to so often been at the right place and time. Maybe there's a reason for this? I think the best driver in IC right now is Will Power, but he doesn't have the same results as Dario. Yes, we can SABRmetricize both of their careers, but at one point or another - like you said - Dario is the one with his face on the BorgWarner trophy 3 times and with 4 titles. Results matter. Quote:
I strongly disagree. I was just talking on another forum about how it irritates me when people slag NASCAR/oval drivers. I used to think NASCAR was easy and their drivers sucked when I was much younger and only an F1 fan (and young and foolish and a Canadian patriot), but I soon learned NASCAR is extremely difficult and has a very deep pool of talent to draw on. Jimmie Johnson is an exceptional talent. He's got 5 titles in a series that has some of the greatest parity of any top level motorsport. If NASCAR has little to do with driving talent, why do the best "raw talents" in your estimation struggle so much to win? 3 wins between the two of them in a combined 244 races in 12 years in the top flite... Yeah. What logic are you using here? The real story is that NASCAR - like the series or not, and I don't - is a totally different discipline from F1 or V8SC that mostly races on ovals which are very unrelated to the road circuits these guys used to race on, and in cars that are totally different from what they were used to driving. Full disclosure: I am not a NASCAR fan, and I only watch IC here and there. I cheered for Dario in past and still sometimes do as I am a Scot by blood, and didn't follow the series enough to develop being a fan of a certain driver for anything more than nationalistic reasons, but I have learned he is not well liked by many for the right or wrong reasons and thus like him less. |
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30 May 2012, 11:53 (Ref:3081803) | #23 | ||
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NASCAR is almost a different sport. Akin to comparing rugby with soccer. I don't think Dario got a good crack at NASCAR anyway. The form of Earnhardt-Ganassi at the time was inconsistent. They are consistently dismal now of course. I don't know whether he would've made it in NASCAR, the DTM isn't an apt comparison as it was heavy on technology and ovals are different animals.
Really puts the achievements of AJ Foyt into its proper perspective. LeMans, NASCAR, Indycar. Truly a titan. |
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30 May 2012, 12:12 (Ref:3081818) | #24 | |||
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I've often wondered about Franchitti and how popular he is. He has, over the years, been involved in plenty of incidents and got away with it whereas other drivers wouldn't have, so I suspect some fans might have got annoyed with this. I didn't realise he was quite unpopular though... Re Nascar. Well it's the fact that guys like Villeneuve (son of one of the fastest racing drivers of all time...), Ambrose, Montoya to a degree, come to Nascar and only ever have a chance of winning on actual road tracks rather than ovals. It could be just that the other guys don't have enough experience and that's why the struggle outside the ovals, sure. Then again, we're talking about world class drivers here. I think Montoya is the ultimate example, he's won F1 races, Daytona 24 hrs, Indy 500, Cart champion, and Nascar races. Who's more successful than that? Mario Andretti? In every series he's been in, he's been fast. Including pre Cart days. The fact that he struggles in Nascar means either 2 things - the Ganassi team is utter ****, or there's way more to Nascar than driver skill, because he's clearly a skilled driver and that's not enough to lift him into the top 10 in Nascar (apart from 2009 where he finished 8th). 2 wins in nearly 200 starts. You can't tell me Paul Menard, sitting ahead of him in points currently, is a better driver than Montoya and Ambrose. And the funny thing is, I actually think Montoya is a complete ******. I've disliked him since his arrogant Cart days. But I do respect his racing skill. The reason I rate Ambrose, firstly how he obliterates most of the field when it comes to road tracks, but he came to V8SC and very quickly started beating guys like Skaife and Lowndes. I rate Allmendinger as well... one of the only guys that could take the fight to Bourdais. But anyway I'm really just generalising to a massive degree here... you could be right. And maybe Jimmie Johnson could be F1 champion material if his career path went that way. It's just my opinion that Nascar is all about car setup, and even Ayrton Senna could come to Nascar and get nowhere if he doesn't have a fast car and a team (including himself) that knows how to set the car up. Re Indycar, yeah Will Power I agree is the best in that series at the moment. Took him a few years to get up to speed, but he's made Helio and Ryan look very average at the non-ovals. Again, suggesting ovals are more about setting a car up than being a great driver. Re Dario at Indy 500... the funny thing was that on paper Dario wasn't in the right place right time, you needed to be in 2nd going into the last lap to have the best chance at winning, and making the move into turn 1. He was in the wrong place, but it just so happened that Sato spun up and the caution flew. Without Sato spinning, both Dixon or Sato, whoever was in second, should have passed him on that final lap. But only Dario would have the luck that the 2nd placed car would spin himself out so he could then cruise to the chequers under yellow. Dramatic, sure, but a bit of a sad final lap really. Last edited by Razzzor; 30 May 2012 at 12:23. |
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30 May 2012, 13:34 (Ref:3081863) | #25 | |||||
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The Indy 500 he pitted because he had a puncture which put him off strategy, which was indeed luck. Quote:
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