Awesome driver ... wrong era

Dino IV · 29 Aug 2001, 21:25 (Ref:138048)

As I was thinking a bit if Montoya has been handicapped by the current F1 format, I was wondering whether you think we've seen awesome drivers in F1, who didn't actually cut into ultimate stardom because the era they drove in offered a format which wasn't suited to them at all.

Of the current crop I'd say Montoya and Alesi with their awesome instinctive car control would shine more in cars with an oversteering character and which have a throttle directly and linearly related to the power applied, like in any car without driver aids.

Anyone who as ever seen F1 in the seventies (you didn't? get some tapes!) knows that driving these machines was totally awesome. Big balloon rear tires, sliding through corners totaly sideways. Really wicked. I remember some journalist who once wrote a story on Gerhard Berger and he stated that Gerhard's amazing capacities were really in the wrong time as the electronic gizmo's culminated from the early nineties onward and imagined Gerhard in a shoot-out with Ronnie Peterson ...

Mika is a weird driver in this grid as he's the only late-in-oversteerer by heart and reflexes who can match this style even with low grip. He'd be cool in anything with low grip tires like in the sixties, turning in late, rubbing off speed and applying the throttle early, drifting out ... although with big Turbo's this would be big fun too.

It's funny how these men have pretty wild styles by the look of them but yet drive very tidy. Also today we have a lot of drivers with a very tidy, rounded, smooth style like DC and Barrichello, some even to perfection like Trulli and Fisichella. Those I guess would cope with a lot of formats very well, but just wouldn't be on top in any of them as there was someone around who just had the luck of having some extra ability which matched the format very well. I actually know of only one driver with this style who prevailed in a lot of formats and that was Prost. But his talent was of such a magnitude - Piquet right up there .. at times

- he could rely on it easily.

Who do you think would have been better off in another era?

paulzinho · 29 Aug 2001, 21:32 (Ref:138055)

Alesi. He wont get his rewards because of the 'gizmos'.

**Bononi** · 29 Aug 2001, 22:01 (Ref:138082)

I think JPM could be great in the early 80's, but Dino, how he would handle that guys on the grid ? Prost, Arnoux, Gilles, Pironi, A Jones, J Watson, Piquet, Mansell, Alboreto, Elio de Angelis, Rosberg, Andretti, Tambay, Lafite, Reutemann and Patrese... WOW what a grid we have then !!!!

I Ate Yoko Ono · 29 Aug 2001, 22:05 (Ref:138090)

Bononi

To quote from When Harry Met Sally, "Yes Yes YES" (you're right, ie I agree with you). At first glance Montoya and Alesi are the Petersen and G Villeneuve of the modern era and they would have done brilliantly late 70s era....but then again they'd have been competing against Petersen and G.Villeneuve!!!!!

paulzinho · 29 Aug 2001, 22:10 (Ref:138100)

The 80's were good for something then!!!

**Bononi** · 29 Aug 2001, 22:53 (Ref:138154)

Precisely Ono !

Thanks.

Ray Bell · 29 Aug 2001, 23:01 (Ref:138165)

I don't see why anyone would think Berger could cut it with Peterson... but perhaps the problem there is not having the opportunity to see him in that kind of car...

Speed · 29 Aug 2001, 23:50 (Ref:138208)

Montoya will shine with modern cars, just give him a break, he is an F1 Rookie !!!, next year he'll be on top, just wait... this guy had two opportunities with these modern engines to beat everybody on the grid so far, but he was unlucky, that's all...

BBKing · 30 Aug 2001, 00:39 (Ref:138229)

Sorry guys but you cannot compare Alesi to Montoya. Alesi had a good race against Senna and that is pretty much it. There is nothing remarkable other than moving to Ferrari instead of Williams and wasting a great opportunity. He had the chance and blew it. People think of him highly because he must have been the last very well liked Ferrari driver. People admire Schumacher but they don’t love him the way they loved Gilles and Alesi.

If Montoya signs for Toyota instead of trying to keep his seat at Williams I would think he is in the same brain wave than Alesi. His current form shows the fact that he needs to adapt to the current format. If he is good as I am convinced he is he will find a way to win in it does not matter what.

I think a truly great driver can do it in any car as long as is competitive. It might have been easier for a particular style of driving to be in a determine era but that is the game. How you adapt to what you have.

Great post Dino. Sorry if I drifted from the original message but I had to make a distinction between Alesi and Montoya.

mac · 30 Aug 2001, 02:05 (Ref:138264)

One man - ALESSANDRO ZANARDI.

He proved in CART what an outstanding racer he was. A fast driver with amazing will to win.

He was hampered by the fact that you cannot RACE the current f1 cars. Zanardi never really got the hang of these silly, twitchy, narrow cars on grooved tyres. Not to mantion the fact that even Ralf said the '99 Williams was unstable under braking.

Alex has never been a great qualifier, but he was/is a great racer. He didn't mind getting back in the field, because he knew he could pass guys. You just can't do that in formula one these days.

z2252314 · 30 Aug 2001, 02:35 (Ref:138272)

Very interesting topic. However, I thought I recalled Montoya approving of the introduction of traction control. Just after the Brazilian Grand Prix he said he was looking forward to the added control on exits that TC would provide. Anyway, I'd also like to know what happened to Schui's style. When he first entered F1 he too had a very aggressive style. Occassionaly flicking the tail out, he enjoyed manhandling the benneton. But what has happened now? He seems so much more smoother. Has only the car changed, or has Schui adapted his driving style to the new gizmos.

P.S I dont think Montoya's career will dwindle away like Alesi's. He's still in his first year, and once he learns the modern f1 car, he'll be a force in f1.

Speed · 30 Aug 2001, 12:43 (Ref:138401)

Quote:

Originally posted by z2252314
P.S I dont think Montoya's career will dwindle away like Alesi's. He's still in his first year, and once he learns the modern f1 car, he'll be a force in f1.

Amen...

kuchi · 30 Aug 2001, 13:16 (Ref:138416)

I totally agree with Dino IV, momtoya showed up in Cart what handling is. He really knows how to control a car, no matter how bad the set up is. He would have been huge in the late 60's early 70's, fighting against Stewart, wow, that would've been awesome.

kuchi · 30 Aug 2001, 13:16 (Ref:138417)

I totally agree with Dino IV, momtoya showed up in Cart what handling is. He really knows how to control a car, no matter how bad the set up is. He would have been huge in the late 60's early 70's, fighting against Stewart, wow, that would've been awesome.

facco · 30 Aug 2001, 13:34 (Ref:138423)

If Montoya is so bad, how can you sustain your theory after we 've seen the statistics saying he's the one who had lead the major amount of laps this season?
Montoya is in his rookie year, next season we will see

BBKing · 30 Aug 2001, 13:54 (Ref:138431)

Quote:

Originally posted by facco
If Montoya is so bad, how can you sustain your theory after we 've seen the statistics saying he's the one who had lead the major amount of laps this season?
Montoya is in his rookie year, next season we will see

Why wait until the next season. Lets wait to see what happens this weekend. Formula Juan has a good chance to win the comming race. Trust me.

facco · 30 Aug 2001, 15:28 (Ref:138446)

Quote:

Originally posted by BBKing

Why wait until the next season. Lets wait to see what happens this weekend. Formula Juan has a good chance to win the comming race. Trust me.

I'm waiting monza... remember that the forecast at spa is RAIN and Michellin tires are not good enough at wet circuit. It may happen... JPM First win at F1 this weekend will be just perfect

**Bononi** · 30 Aug 2001, 16:02 (Ref:138459)

Quote:

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I don't see why anyone would think Berger could cut it with Peterson... but perhaps the problem there is not having the opportunity to see him in that kind of car...

Berger ?? :confused:

Liz · 30 Aug 2001, 21:00 (Ref:138607)

Montoya would have been wonderful in the 1970s and 1980s cars. He is another man who DRIVES a car.

Kimi et al. on the other hand would have been useless as their hang-onto-the-wheel-and-don't-overthink-the-electronics style would get them nowhere.

Prost was the king of the turbo era but I wonder what he would have done with today's robot propelled machinery?

paulzinho · 30 Aug 2001, 21:25 (Ref:138634)

I think any of the turbo era drivers would be horrified at how little the driver needs to do now and I wouldnt blame anyone who said the DRIVERS CHAMPIONSHIP had somewhat been devalued by the 'gizmos'. Actually take any driver from before 1992...

**Bononi** · 30 Aug 2001, 22:38 (Ref:138702)

That would be interesting seeing all those drivers managing to drive this robot like cars today...

Ray Bell · 30 Aug 2001, 22:58 (Ref:138714)

Quote:

Originally posted by mac
One man - ALESSANDRO ZANARDI.

He proved in CART what an outstanding racer he was. A fast driver with amazing will to win.

He was hampered by the fact that you cannot RACE the current f1 cars. Zanardi never really got the hang of these silly, twitchy, narrow cars on grooved tyres. Not to mantion the fact that even Ralf said the '99 Williams was unstable under braking.

Alex has never been a great qualifier, but he was/is a great racer. He didn't mind getting back in the field, because he knew he could pass guys. You just can't do that in formula one these days.

Not being able to qualify is now a serious handicap in F1, and if this is so I would totally agree with you, mac.

Zanardi was too impressive in CART to be ignored in F1... too bad, perhaps, that it is no longer like the days when Prost and Watson could come through from the rear of the grid to steal the podium!

Bononi....

You ask why I mention Berger... this is from Dino's post that started this thread:

Quote:

Anyone who as ever seen F1 in the seventies (you didn't? get some tapes!) knows that driving these machines was totally awesome. Big balloon rear tires, sliding through corners totaly sideways. Really wicked. I remember some journalist who once wrote a story on Gerhard Berger and he stated that Gerhard's amazing capacities were really in the wrong time as the electronic gizmo's culminated from the early nineties onward and imagined Gerhard in a shoot-out with Ronnie Peterson ...

Now it makes sense?

**Bononi** · 30 Aug 2001, 23:19 (Ref:138718)

Yep, Ray, sure it does...

Just tought you're replying my post...

Okay, in a shoot-out with Peterson, Ronnie one of my faves... not even close.

I Ate Yoko Ono · 30 Aug 2001, 23:20 (Ref:138719)

Ray,

Although I don't think he would have made a world champion if he had lived to be 90, I would say Martin Brundle was another like Zanardi who in contrast to how he would have performed in the 70s could not seem to qualify high up in the 80s/90s F1 type car but somehow always used to be able to set the car up well and set exceptionally competitive race lap times in race trim with a car on full tanks.

Were Zanardi/Brundle in the wrong or was/is F1 in the wrong for creating a formula in which obvious examples of talent were unable to shine?

**Bononi** · 30 Aug 2001, 23:28 (Ref:138722)

To say the least, we're in a dream time.

To think drivers in wrong time (or era) is fun, but not reasonable.

Ok, if we want to say JPM will do great in early 80's, but like we posted before, what about the ones at that time ?

The same goes to the others. The only thing I learned (or remembered) from all this, is that we have a weak grid now. Sorry to offend any supporters, but when we repeated a grid like 81 (just randomly picked up) in the late 90's ???

Just a thought.

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