Guys who beat the best- then did nothing

BootsOntheSide · 1 Dec 2001, 20:29 (Ref:181034)

Its often suggested that an F1 champion doesn't need to be the best driver, tehy just have to get the right drives. So I'd be itnerested to hear people's views as to drivers who at some point beat legends of today or yesterday, but never really reached the top. To start us off:

KARL WENDLINGER: Matched M Schuamcher and Frentzen in F3 and Sportscars, F1 hopes cut short by Monaco crash

ERIC VAN DER POELE: Probably the classic example. Beat Damon Hill when they were team-mates, but drove for 3 F1 teams who all ran out of money (Lambo, Brabham and Fondmetal)

**ghinzani** · 1 Dec 2001, 20:37 (Ref:181037)

Mike Thackwell - who didnt he beat from his era? what a waste....
The greatest F2 driver ever? possibly.......

cos · 1 Dec 2001, 21:04 (Ref:181042)

Luca Badoer: beat Barrichello, Panis and Coulthard to win F3000 title in his first season, back in 1992.
Most races without a point scored I believe.

Nicholas · 1 Dec 2001, 21:09 (Ref:181045)

Chris Amon (no wins) and Stirling Moss(no WDC)?

**Aysedasi** · 1 Dec 2001, 22:23 (Ref:181056)

Quote:

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide

KARL WENDLINGER: Matched M Schuamcher and Frentzen in F3 and Sportscars, F1 hopes cut short by Monaco crash

And everyone seems to forget the third of the German sportscar trio, Fritz Kreutzpointner, who some said was quicker than both Michael and Karl.

He's still racing trucks today.

**ghinzani** · 1 Dec 2001, 22:37 (Ref:181062)

Wasnt Fritz K part of the second wave, about a year after? I thought TGF,Wendlinger and Frentzen were the 1st wave then Fritz K and an other who I cant remember (not Ellen Lohr)

FastJoel31 · 2 Dec 2001, 03:51 (Ref:181120)

Quote:

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
...KARL WENDLINGER: Matched M Schuamcher and Frentzen in F3 and Sportscars, F1 hopes cut short by Monaco crash

ERIC VAN DER POELE: Probably the classic example. Beat Damon Hill when they were team-mates, but drove for 3 F1 teams who all ran out of money (Lambo, Brabham and Fondmetal)

It seems that sports car racing just doesn't seem to float some peoples boat then, huh? An overall win in the Rolex 24 in a Viper isn't too shabby...

mac · 2 Dec 2001, 08:03 (Ref:181129)

Tommy Byrne. I just found an old CAR magazine from 1996, that profiles the Irishman.

Formula Ford 1600 champion. Euro FF2000 champion. FF festival winner. British F3 champion.

In 1982 he earned a 25 lap test with McLaren at Silverstone. He blew the doors off the other drivers. He beat the regular McLaren drivers' best times and set a time that would have put himself on the front row of the 1983 British Grand Prix.

According to rumours, one of two things occurred afterwards. He either told Ron Dennis, "I could have gone quicker but it was understeering like a pig." Or, when Ron told him he'd beaten Niki Lauda's time, replied "Niki who?"

Byrne swears that he only said, "If we could take a little bit of wing off the front, I think I could go a little bit quicker." And that was it.

Eddie Jordan rated him, being quoted: "The problem was he was so naturally gifted. He would win races with his eyes shut. Then another time he started from the front row, lost it at the chicane and wrote the tub off - on the warm-up lap. He nearly drove me mad, but what a man. He could have been, without any doubt, a world champion."

I'd also like to give a nod to Marcos Ambrose. Quicker than Raikkonen and Button in junior formulae. Unfortunately had no money and is now racing in Aussie V8s (and doing a pretty damn good job).

**Aysedasi** · 2 Dec 2001, 10:13 (Ref:181140)

Quote:

Originally posted by ghinzani
Wasnt Fritz K part of the second wave, about a year after? I thought TGF,Wendlinger and Frentzen were the 1st wave then Fritz K and an other who I cant remember (not Ellen Lohr)

I must confess ghinzani, I don't know too much about German F3, but the three of them certainly raced together in Mercedes sportscars, and at Le Mans. Here's the proof.....

http://www.aysedasi.btinternet.co.uk...1/91schuey.JPG

Farc · 2 Dec 2001, 11:24 (Ref:181172)

He Was 250cc 500cc 750cc Motorcicle World Champion And The Younger Ever Then He Go To Race F1 And He Beat Hes Team mate even He Classific for Races And His team Mate Can't The He Sufer A Serius Crash and He Break Bot Feets, Now He Is the Champion Of DTM in Gemany.
And His Team Mate Was Airton Senna Da Silva.

Nicholas · 2 Dec 2001, 12:30 (Ref:181194)

Quote:

Originally posted by mac
In 1982 he earned a 25 lap test with McLaren at Silverstone. He blew the doors off the other drivers. He beat the regular McLaren drivers' best times and set a time that would have put himself on the front row of the 1983 British Grand Prix.

According to rumours, one of two things occurred afterwards. He either told Ron Dennis, "I could have gone quicker but it was understeering like a pig." Or, when Ron told him he'd beaten Niki Lauda's time, replied "Niki who?"

Bloody hell!

I guess McRon didn't take him on because of that...?

Did he get to F1 in the end, and where is he now???

Nicholas · 2 Dec 2001, 12:41 (Ref:181199)

Oh, I've found a profile:

Name: Tommy Byrne
Nationality: Ireland
Date of birth: May 6, 1958 - Drogheda, Co Louth

A chirpy Irishman who showed great talent in the junior formulae and won the British Formula 3 title in 1982 for Murray Taylor Racing. At the end of the year he made a big impression while testing a McLaren but perhaps in retrospect he should have resisted the temptation to jump into Formula 1 with the uncompetitive Theodore that same season. He subsequently stayed in Formula 3 the following season contesting the European Championship, but it led nowhere and so he moved to the USA where he had a successful career for over a decade in minor league single seaters.

I Ate Yoko Ono · 2 Dec 2001, 13:01 (Ref:181225)

Just a thought - its interesting to note some drivers have done the same in reverse -

Two Austrians spring to mind. Niki Lauda - wasn't he a mediocre unknown in the lower formulae without a major championship to his name? A bad first year in F1 and then...three world championships!!!

Gerhard Berger - a European saloon championship winner, but did he have any single seater success aginst his F1 contemporaries in the lower formulae? I don't remember any but he went on to take several F1 victories (ten or eleven I think).

**ghinzani** · 2 Dec 2001, 13:18 (Ref:181231)

Quote:

Originally posted by Aysedasi

I must confess ghinzani, I don't know too much about German F3, but the three of them certainly raced together in Mercedes sportscars, and at Le Mans. Here's the proof.....

http://www.aysedasi.btinternet.co.uk...1/91schuey.JPG

Your right - that looks like 91 tho, didnt Schumi, Wend and Frentzen share a car with Mass the year before around their f3, f3000 and f3000 roles respectrively? Wend was german f3 champ in 89 with Marko RSM, with the other two close behind, then Scumaker hung on another year to win it in 90. By that time Frentzen had opted outta the Merc junior prog, thats why Fritz K was running with them at Le Mans. I think....

paulzinho · 2 Dec 2001, 15:56 (Ref:181282)

Quote:

Originally posted by nicholaswhite
Oh, I've found a profile:

Name: Tommy Byrne
Nationality: Ireland
Date of birth: May 6, 1958 - Drogheda, Co Louth

A chirpy Irishman who showed great talent in the junior formulae and won the British Formula 3 title in 1982 for Murray Taylor Racing. At the end of the year he made a big impression while testing a McLaren but perhaps in retrospect he should have resisted the temptation to jump into Formula 1 with the uncompetitive Theodore that same season. He subsequently stayed in Formula 3 the following season contesting the European Championship, but it led nowhere and so he moved to the USA where he had a successful career for over a decade in minor league single seaters.

I saw some highlights of the 82 F3 season and he won the 1st 5 or 6 races easily! i was wondering what happenned to him after watching those videos, certainly looks to be one of those that got away.

**ghinzani** · 2 Dec 2001, 16:20 (Ref:181288)

Byrnes career was a strange one.... after his F3 triumph in 82 and his poor showing with the Theodore he then ran two seasons in European F3 I think with Anson one year, driving for the Yokohama UK importers Pacemaker (hence the Anson link up) - he then went off to the states and maybe did some F SuperVee (presumably because of the Anson connection) and then was racing ff2000 for the Van Deimen importer. He then made it into ARS (Indy Lights original name) and came close to taking the championship driving for Opar (British team run by Colin Bennet ex Lotus F1 mechanic)... he then ran outta drives and I think resurfaced in Mexican F3... I think he may have done the odd Sportswcar race too. Talk about a waste of talent... and of running your career backwards!! I was reading an old article yesterday from the mid 80s about a guy from Byrnes hometown (Dundalk?) who couldnt get any sponsor money 'cos they all expected him to be as succesful as Byrne. Seeems strange now looking back. The guy was racing a Formula Ford whilst on the dole! He was called Noel Roddy and he had an old Crossle which he was frightening the FF frontrunners at Mondello with. Also seems strange that you could be unemployed for 2.5 years like Noel had been, especially in Eire as Noel was. I bet theres hardly anyone on the dole in Eire these days. If Tommy had come along now he'd probably have been able to pick up loadsa sponsorship. Another wasted Irish talent was Michael Roe the 1984 Can Am champion. Where are they now?

BBKing · 2 Dec 2001, 16:32 (Ref:181296)

Irvine beat Frentzen in F3 and Frentzen beat Schumacher in Sport car and in Corina's heart. Then everything went wrong for Frentzy, his F1 career did not picked up and he lost Corina to Schumacher, at least officially, they are people out there who claim that HHF is the real father of Mick....lol

Number Juan · 2 Dec 2001, 18:21 (Ref:181346)

i think that Barichello and Herbert - ex-ex team mates at stewart - Herbert was the best thing since sliced bread until his crash in 87', Barichello showed everybody during the 90's he was a great driver, but when he got to Ferrari - hasn't lived up to that kind of performance - shown before his move to the maranello team.

to a certain extent, Alesi...he showed Senna the way, signed for Ferrari and his career never picked up - he could have been a multiple world champion if he had have gone for Williams (after signing for Ferrari at the same time).....its a shame as the stats don't do justice to Alesi's skill.

**Aysedasi** · 2 Dec 2001, 19:49 (Ref:181360)

Quote:

Originally posted by Number Juan
i think that Barichello and Herbert - ex-ex team mates at stewart - Herbert was the best thing since sliced bread until his crash in 87', Barichello showed everybody during the 90's he was a great driver, but when he got to Ferrari - hasn't lived up to that kind of performance - shown before his move to the maranello team.

to a certain extent, Alesi...he showed Senna the way, signed for Ferrari and his career never picked up - he could have been a multiple world champion if he had have gone for Williams (after signing for Ferrari at the same time).....its a shame as the stats don't do justice to Alesi's skill.

Herbert, Barrichello and Alesi? I've always been a Herbert fan. As it happens, I was there at Brands the day he had his accident. It was a bad day. It was the first time I took my wife to a motor race and I smashed up my MG on the way there!

I've also enjoyed watching Barrichello and Alesi too, but I sadly don't feel that any one of them would ever have (will ever) win the WDC. They're all too bloody nice!

Nicholas · 2 Dec 2001, 21:09 (Ref:181402)

Tommy Byrne not getting a decent F1 career must be one of the most criminally unfair motor-racing situations of the 80's.

Didn't McRon refuse to sign Mansell when he tested in the early 80s because he was too arrogant?

jiggly_puff · 2 Dec 2001, 21:09 (Ref:181403)

Quote:

Originally posted by BBKing
he lost Corina to Schumacher, at least officially, they are people out there who claim that HHF is the real father of Mick....lol

thats a bit contraversial

Schumacher · 3 Dec 2001, 00:52 (Ref:181477)

Quote:

Originally posted by jiggly_puff

thats a bit contraversial

Just goes to show Bbking is still...a moron. Must be in the genes

BBKing · 3 Dec 2001, 15:47 (Ref:181677)

Quote:

Originally posted by Schumacher

Just goes to show Bbking is still...a moron. Must be in the genes

Can he insult and get away with it. If so let me know so I can let the dogs out...LOL

Moderators?

KC · 3 Dec 2001, 16:20 (Ref:181694)

Alan McNish

He was one of the very few who could beat Mika Hakkinen when they first started their pro careers. While McNish has gone on to be a championship driver in sportscars, Hakkinen when on to two WDCs with McLaren. Now as Hakkinen has left (temporarily?) F1 Mcnish finally gets his chance, but with flegdling Toyota outfit. He is on a very steep curve and it will be interesting to see if he can get it done. Obviously Toyota will not be competitive quickly, but can he exhibit his ability in such a car?

Nicholas · 3 Dec 2001, 18:21 (Ref:181757)

McNish has been testing for ages hasn't he? Would be interesting to see what he's like at last.

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