How many titles for MS had Senna not died?

[Yoong Montoya]

This must be the biggest 'what if' in F1 history. But how many titles would MS have won had Senna not been killed? Remember that MS wouldn't have gone to Ferrari in 1996 if Senna had lived. I'm not sure, but 1994-1997 would have been very close contests between Senna and MS.

[freud]

Excellent question... Probably 2 or less.

[OVERSTEER]

You know the saying F1 is If spelt backwards, there are alot of if's in anything in life and F1 isn't any different.

[J.McClane]

Well if you take into account the Prost friendly official that stoped Senna winnin' 4 titles in a row.
Hill ALMOST but NOT QUITE winnin' in 94(can't think why though), so if Hill could have almost won in 94, then surley Senna most definatley would have.
So Senna could have atleat had 5 titles under his belt by 94, but after 94 is anyone's guess.
My GUESS is Senna could have won about 7 titles(the Prost incedent included)and Shu would not be this overrated driver that he has become.
All I know is we missed out on some great races after Senna died.

RIP Senna

[R]

None.

[R]

Btw, J.McClane, great post, I agree wholeheartedly.

[J.McClane]

Thanks R, i like it too.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by J.McClane
My GUESS is Senna could have won about 7 titles[/img]

i believe that Senna would have won 5 titles...88/90/91........94 and 95 then retired, not wanting to surpass Fangio, so possibly, tgf would be going for his 3rd wdc

[I Ate Yoko Ono]

6 or 7 for Senna if he could have kept his motivation going. 2 to MS. Ironically, MS I believe would have kept Senna in the sport beyond equalling Fangio's record.

[Markules]

94 - Senna. He'd have waited and passed TGF on the straight. 1995, I think Schumi would have won it. We all know the way Benetton were seemingly incapable of building two equal cars while Schumacher was there, but even Herbert was able to rack up a couple of wins that season. the B195 was so good, you could probably have stuck Schumacher's granny in it and she'd have won the title

What would have been interesting to see, though, is what would have happened at the end of 1995. Ferrari wanted a proven champ - would they have gone for Senna, or TGF?

[DNQ]

What if Gilles Villeneuve hadnot died? It is rumoured he had a contract at McLaren in 1983...if he had gone there...who knows, he may have stayed there until 1988, partenering Senna. Prost wouldn't have got his break with McLaren and may never have won. Therefore it'd be G. Villeneuve and Senna at the end of the decade. Senna wouldn't have died at Imola (different circumstances..of course, technically he may have died somewhere else). With G. Villeneuve retiring in about 1990 or so, Senna may not have won as many titles. My point? There is too much speculation. Altering one event changes everything else. For example...had Ayrton Senna been killed in a road accident in say, 1975 or something, someone like Stefan Bellof could today be the 3 times champ. I know I've kind of twisted the post up here, and confused you all...but I am just saying it's too hard to say.

But, pretending that Senna didn't die, but everything else continued the same, Senna would have won in 1994, and maybe 1995, before retiring. Schumacher probably wouldn't be in a Ferrari, and they'd be nowhere.

[f1manoz]

Originally posted by DNQ
But, pretending that Senna didn't die, but everything else continued the same, Senna would have won in 1994, and maybe 1995, before retiring. Schumacher probably wouldn't be in a Ferrari, and they'd be nowhere.

I concur with that statement.

Who knows - TGF might be in a Williams right now!

[z2252314]

People should remember that Schui had won the first two races of the 94 season. The only reason Hill came so close is that Michael was disqualified for three races, and his points were taken away from a fourth. Im not sure what season you were watching Markules, but I think the majority would agree that the B195 was nowhere near as quick as the Williams. Just go and check qualifying, I think Coulthard was able to take 5 poles in a row in that thing and by the end of the season Williams had outqualified the Benneton 12-4! Michael made the difference up in the races with great strategy.

One thing is for sure, Senna would never have taken the Ferrari job. He always chased the best drive (which is no criticism) and certainly wouldnt have taken Ferrari to the success that Michael has. They were both great drivers with many similarities, but we must remember that Michael was extremely determined in his younger days and was learning very quickly. How many would Michael have now? Im not sure, but what I do know is that fans missed out on what would have been one of the greatest battles for F1 supremacy.

[Amaroo Park]

Senna probably would have won 3 titles with Williams then possibly retired or gone to Ferrari. It was no secret that he wanted to go there at some time durning his career. So shumacher probably would only have 2 titles at best and he would look very ordinary next to Senna

[DNQ]

z2252314, don't be so sure that Ayrton wouldn't have joined Ferrari..I've got an Autosport article from a few years back outlining a rumour that he was to go to Ferrari in the early 1990's...apparently he got pretty close...

[z2252314]

He left Mclaren because he wanted a better drive at Williams. The last thing he would have wanted to do is move to an inferior car while the up and coming Schumacher was on his tail. Just look back at the past; Senna quickly left Toleman to get the better Lotus drive. He left Lotus in a flash on getting an offer from Mclaren. He stayed at Mclaren until 93' when he could no longer put up with an inferior car and jumped to the then dominant Williams team. Please dont take this as a criticism on Ayrton. In fact it was the smart thing to do, and most drivers, given the same options would have done exactly the same. Could Ayrton produce results in an inferior car? Yes! Would he have had the patience to go through the rebuilding process that Ferrari so urgently needed? In my opinion no.
If Ferrari were not able to lure Michael away in 96, I think Ferrari would still be pondering in the middle pack.

Autosport article from a few years back outlining a rumour that he was to go to Ferrari in the early 1990's...apparently he got pretty close...

I agree that it was probably a dream of Ayrtons to drive for Ferrari. Yet I dont think he suffered from the blind devotion like Alesi. Senna always wanted to be on top. If Ferrari looked like it was capable of winning a championship, then yes, Senna may have considered. However, in the state Ferrari was in during the mid-90's, I doubt very much Senna would have considered the move.

[RWC]

Sennsa WOULD have won in '94,no doubt!
95 as the beneton was better?It definitely would be one of the most knock down drag out fights in F1 history!!!& we KNOW that shuey makes'not nice'mistakes when pushed to his limit so there would be HEAPS of stuborn chrashes bettween the two!!!After that it gets tricky.Either micheal or arton may have gone to ferrari (we know arton wanted to sometime before he retired)that would have left the door open for the other to walk away with a few champs....What if hey?

[calais]

the way i see it is if senna had lived and won the 94 title, renault would have had no need to join benetton.
senna would have won 95, and TFG would've signed for mclaren mercedes.
i now that senna wanted to spend hid twilight years drivng for ferrari, and there is no way ferrari would've chased TFG if senna were available.
if he had lived
senna 6 titles
TFG two if he was lucky

what wouldve been more entertaining wouldve been to see these two trying to take each other off the track all the time!!!

[z2252314]

Michael had a 20-0 point lead going into Imola. We should remember that Senna cracked first in 94 (spinning out in Brazil trying to chase down schumi). Michael was so young back then, and the pressure was all on Senna. I think it would have been a titanic battle.

[EERO]

I think you are entirely correct z225. Senna was struggling early in '94, the car seemed to be diabolical. maybe he would have sorted it out, but even if he had survived the crash at Tamborello, he would have been 30 points down.

[J.McClane]

Like i said in my privious post though, "Hill ALMOST but NOT QUITE winnin' in 94(can't think why though), so if Hill could have almost won in 94, then surley Senna most definatley would have."

[Gt_R]

Can't think why? Let's see, if you mean what happened in Australia that year...IF Damon didn't knock with Michael, and IF Damon had 10 points in that race, Damon would have won.... BUT if we want "ifs", If Michael is not DQed for the times he did, Damon won't be in the position to be "almost..winning in 94". Talking of ifs!

But yes, while Senna is determined to get the best cars to get the best results, it is no secret that he wanted to spend a year or two driving for Ferrari....probably as an end to his career after 95, which would sum up nicely to Ferrari's plan of getting a top driver in 96/97.

How many titles would MS have now if Senna is alive? Its too close a call. And only biased opinions would think that either one would DEFINITELY get one up on the other.

[paulzinho]

Senna would've won 1994, 95, 96, 97 with Williams.

Even Michael says Senna would've won in 94.

Senna wouldn't have left Williams while they were still the best. When Renault pulled out then he probably would've signed for Ferrari.

But I am biased so

[z2252314]

Even Michael says Senna would've won in 94.

Id really like to see that quote. At the end of the day, like Eero said, Senna would have been down 30-0 after Imola. You would have to be one fanatical Ayrton fan to say he definately would have won 94. As I said before, Michael was disqualified for 2 races and points were taken away from another two. Effectively, he only competed in 12 of the 16 races. Thats why damon closed up. I believe Michael would have won 94 given his huge lead after 3 races. But one cannot say for sure. It would have been a close battle.


By the way, the thought that Senna would have left Williams to join Ferrari while Michael was hot on his heels is a bit far fetched in my opinion.

Would Ferrari have pursued Senna instead of MS? Perhaps
Would Senna have moved from Williams to Ferrari? In my opinion, no.

I dont think Michael would have moved to Ferrari had Senna been around aswell. They both would have been striving to gain F1 dominance, and neither of them would have made the move to an inferior Ferrari. Michael made the move because he felt he had nothing else to prove. He had won two championships and consensus was that he was the best driver. He needed a different challenge.

[paulzinho]

I'll try and dig up the quote for you. I can't do it now but i'll try and find it later.