Renault's V-angle

[Blue]

Does anyone know the Renualt's v-angle of new engine? Did they change to 90 degrees? Honda did change to 90 degrees. They finally concluded that wide angle didn't work.

[JonesF1]

Ive heard everything from 102 to 120 degrees. I think its 111. I dont believe Honda has ever taken the wide angle route.

[neilap]

Honda did take the wide angle route! The new motor is the more "conventional" 90 degrees.

If memory serves me correctly I think Renault had planned to run the same basic concept this year and next year introduce something new. This was what I reading somewhere.

[williamsf1]

can you show me anywhere that Honda ran more than 90 deg??? more than 90 would be considered "wide angle"

Renault is deffinately 111 deg.


go Monty!!

[ASCII Man]

I thought it was 110°?

[Jukebox]

Originally posted by williamsf1
can you show me anywhere that Honda ran more than 90 deg??? more than 90 would be considered "wide angle"

Is http://www.espnstar.com/jsp/cda/stud...l]espnstar.com

Taken from them....

"Both of the two Honda-powered teams are also likely to be good at certain tracks and potential race winners, particularly if the Japanese maker’s new 'wide angle' 110-degree V10 can work better than the engine that Renault pioneered." - published on the 21/2/02

[Valve Bounce]

Jukes, what have you done to your settings? Your post does not fit on the page. It is much wider than the other posts.

[neilap]

Originally posted by Jukebox
Is http://www.espnstar.com/jsp/cda/stud...l]espnstar.com

Taken from them....

"Both of the two Honda-powered teams are also likely to be good at certain tracks and potential race winners, particularly if the Japanese maker’s new 'wide angle' 110-degree V10 can work better than the engine that Renault pioneered." - published on the 21/2/02

Thanks!!

[Blue]

Honda guy, Takeo kikuchi, said

"It´s completely new(engine)and we believe that it's very strong. We´ve narrowed the V-angle to 90 degrees because we found that there were some disadvantages to its being wider, such as extra vibration."

I don't want to say they wasted time and money, but what if they had started 90 degrees from the beginning...

or they gave up a little too early? Who knows the wide angle may be better.

[Valve Bounce]

The wider angle of 111 degrees will always have inherrant imbalance; this can be countered by a counter-rotating balance shaft. I am not aware that Renault has switched back to a 90 degree engine - does anyone have any info on this?

[RaceCarFanatic]

Renault kept the 111 degrees angle for this season. I think they might go back to the 90 degree angle next season. They already have next years car on the drawing board. They changed some internal parts and the architecture on the engine for this season.

[neilap]

I think Renaults motor is going to be their Achilles heel this year. Just an opinion. I think they know it too.

[Valve Bounce]

Too innovative, too revolutionary? They were also complaining last year that someone had spied on them and this set them back. I could nevr figure that one out. Anyone else know anything about that? Something to do with a revolutionary valve system, I think.

[JonesF1]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
Too innovative, too revolutionary? They were also complaining last year that someone had spied on them and this set them back. I could nevr figure that one out. Anyone else know anything about that? Something to do with a revolutionary valve system, I think.

The electro-magentic valves or whatever? I dont see how anyone spying on them would set them back unless there was sabatoge which has happened before.

Anyway the engine should be fine for this year. Theyve worked alot of the kinks out and it may not be the best engine on the grid but it wont hurt them like it did last year.

[RWC]

Yes,the motor is still definitely 111 deg(or thereabouts).
They have said that they will stick with it for 2(if i remember the interview rightly?) more years and then decide if they want to change.
Last year they had lots of problems with suppliers/building up the engine side of the business.The chief engine designer said this himself.Thats why they had to cut back the revs/power ,sometimes dramatically,just as an instant solution until they could catch up with things.
They never had electomagnetic valves.That's just stupid stories started by dumb journalists.

[Glen]

Te 111 degrees was never denied or confirmed by Renault - I've read a lot of credible speculation about this, and most people think it is likely to be 108 degrees (pretty sure... I think that angle is slightly better, vibration-wise).

The problems they had were to do with vibration and block stiffness. As a quick and dirty fix they augmented the engine block with strengthening chassis "bars" (can't think of a neat way of phrasing that) which made up for the rather flat shape of the engine block being a bit too "twisty". The vibration is tackled in many ways, both with conventional materials engineering and by clever stuff with the engine management. Ultimately they still were forced to use a much lower rev limit though, since they couldn't break through all the snags.

This year's engine is the same basic shape, but has been completely re-engineered to have most if not all of last year's problems absent from the start.

As far as the valve train goes - yes, the electromagentic valve idea was something of a red herring... but they are rumoured to have something pretty novel in that department. As far as I can work out it is basically a way of getting as much of th heavy stuff from the heads down low - so they might have the cams pushed over to the exhaust side of the heads, with light weight actuators going accross to the inlet valves. Interestingly they showed their engine at last year's launch, but didn't this time around.

[neilap]

Maybe they are using pushrods! Sorry!!

It will be something special if they do get power from the motor and reliability. It will actually make Honda look a little like quitters. How do the engineers come up with the v angle? I am sure 111 was not just some arbitrary number.

[Glen]

111 was apparently a number that sounded good - picked up on by a journalist, then before you know it... it is fact!

The angles depend on mathematics - 360 degrees... 72 is 360/5, 90 is 360/4... I don't know the proper terminology, but it's to do with first second and third order harmonics - 108 degrees fiits in there somewhere, I just can't remember how. There has been a very extensive discussion on the Atlas technical board about this.

[Glen]

Originally posted by neilap
Maybe they are using pushrods! Sorry!!

Not pushrods, but single cams has been suggested, with followers reaching over to the other side of the head for the inlets.

[Red]

108 is 3 x 36 (that is 6 * 72 / 2 = 3 x 360 /5) it fits somewhere. (I'm not an engine person myself, but it looks more reasonable than the 110.)

[The_Z_Man]

Originally posted by neilap
Maybe they are using pushrods! Sorry!!

It will be something special if they do get power from the motor and reliability. It will actually make Honda look a little like quitters. How do the engineers come up with the v angle?

I believe them to take into consideration the number of cylinders, firing sequence, shape of the crankshaft and try to minimize vibrations.

72 degrees is the theoretical best V configuration for a 10 cylinder engine. A 4 stroke cylinder fires very 2 revolutions or 720°, divided by 10 (cylinders) yields 72°.

90° are also known to work, so I assume that 108° should work too, even if it's even less easy to balance.

Originally posted by neilap
I am sure 111 was not just some arbitrary number.

Indeed, it was a catchy one. It's in all likelyhood 108°. 111° may be made to work, but it would be a real nightmare to balance. I of course may be dead wrong on that one.

<blah beaten to the punch>

The_Z_Man

[Jukebox]

Valve - my pc was struck with the damn virus just after i posted the reply

neilap - no problemo

Don't have much info or access on specific v angle for most teams but am very sure if it's more than 90degrees, there would certainly be vibration and reliability would be a real concern. Hp have to be reduced certainly and the reason why the Honda claims that their engine would be able to generate more hp this year because of the return to the favourite 90degree angle.

There's no exact specific number of degree that can be confirmed though because the Mercedes did try the 75degree v angle back in 2001.

[RWC]

Originally posted by Glen
Not pushrods, but single cams has been suggested, with followers reaching over to the other side of the head for the inlets.

I've heard it seriously suggested that honda has exactly the same thing

[neilap]

This article was suggested to me. It clarifys things quite a bit. Though it does not get into V10s too much it pretty much explains why motors are configured the way they are. There are so many factors to consider. Mind boggling!!


http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_s...ne/smooth1.htm

[bosch!]

As vertical force is the product of displacement and mass of piston and divided by the time taken for such displacement, you can see the different displacements must lead to different forces, therefore complete cancellation is impossible. The resultant force is the aforementioned second order force, which rotates at twice the speed of the crankshaft

Seems pretty straight forward actually well its a good read anyway, worth the time if you have the time.