Ultimate GP Race

[Marshal]

OK, here's the game, You can pick 20 drivers from Grand Prix history to race against each other in one type of car at one circuit. Here's my attempt;

Varzi
Nuovalari
Rosemeyer
Caracciola
Wimille
Ascari
Fangio
Moss
Brooks
Clark
Gurney
Stewart
Peterson
Lauda
Andretti
G. Villeneuve
Prost
Senna
M. Schumacher
Hakkinen

To race in Maserati 250F's at the old Nurburgring

Any other thoughts?

[Neil C]

Damn good list. Only I'd try to find a spot on the grid for Phil Hill, Hawthorne and maybe Graham Hill.

[angst]

Well, I don't think that little list could be topped. Maybe the addition of Guy Moll. Maserati 250F - beautiful car. How about a series of races. Same drivers, same circuit, different cars.
Bugatti T35
Auto-Union C-Type
Maserati 250F
Lotus 33
Lotus 49
Brabham-BMW BT52
Just to get a good sweep of driving styles.
It would be interesting to see how 'aggressive' MS and Senna would have beeen in these cars, not the same level of safety at all.

[Marshal]

Angst, good choice of alternative vehicles, I guess if its going to be a series, we should ask for another few circuits....

Also which drivers have I left out who really should make the final 20.

[marcus]

ohh yes the Brabham BMW ..that should sort them out..I would probably add Mansell to the list and definately Jack Brabham and Graham Hill. stirling Moss would be one of the gretest drivers ever in my books ..but you have him already and possibly john Sutees

[SL]

That list would take some beating, I would like to see J Ickx and M Hawthorn included, but who to remove ??

Lotus 49 would be interesting, but a real pig of a car like the early eighties Villneuve Ferrari would sort them out, or maybe a 1988 Arrows ??

Race around old Spa or Monaco ???

Next question, all cars equal, all drivers good, who would win. Or should I say who would follow Jimmy Clark home

Simon

[Marshal]

Originally posted by SL


Next question, all cars equal, all drivers good, who would win. Or should I say who would follow Jimmy Clark home

Simon

I'm not sure about that! There's enough talent here to put Jimmy under serious pressure. Assuming the race is 500kms, I think Fangio would be tough to beat in the 250F's.

Out of interest the people who I had difficulty leaving out were Rindt, Collins, Amon, Surtees and Piquet.

[EERO]

Marshall, Rindt was the first name that came to mind for me as missing from your initial list. I would propose Ickx and Fittipaldi as well as Piquet as alternates. Where's Brabham?

Many computer simulations have been written pitting sports teams from different eras against one another in "Ultimate Games"

I think that the front-engined GP cars such as the 250f would too much favour drivers from that era.

Given a series that tested the above group of drivers in the cars listed by angst, I think drivers who bridged the transitional years would actually win it. I vote for Clark, Stewart, Andretti and Brabham as the most likely to win such a series.

[Jay]

Marshall, who is Varzi? I look in my F1 Encyclopedia and don't see him listed.

Although there are a lot of great names on that list, I question Varzi, Caracciola, and Gurney.

I can't see how you can leave out Jack Brabham, Emerson Fittipaldi, Nelson Piquet and Graham Hill.

IMO, I would also add Jacques Villeneuve, as I think he is a better driver than Mika Hakkinen.

There are still some more missing.

[Marshal]

Achile (I think that's right) Varzi was Nuovalari's greatest opponent throught the late 20's and early 30's, he drove for the Bugatti works while Nuovalri drove for Alfa.

As for Gurney, he got the nod over Brabham, G Hill and Surtees, as apparently he was the one who Clark feared most as a competitor.

You could be right about Emmo though.;

[angst]

It's a tough one this, trying to keep it down to 20. Amon, Ickx, Fittipaldi, Rindt, Surtees, Mansell, Brabham, Collins, Farina, Lang, Rosberg, Moll....oooh, if I keep going, Bellof etc etc.
I think you've got a prety good twenty there Marshal, I think after the initial must-haves - Fangio, Nuvolari, Clark, Stewart, Prost, Senna, Schumacher it's then down to personal preference as to who's in and who's not.
Varzi and Carraciola are,in my opinion, definates, absolute class.
I often play these games in my head - ie what would Surer or Villeneuve(Gilles) have done had they been in Niki Lauda's position(all of a similar age), would they have won the Ferrari seat and taken them to championship glory?
Another question is - which drivers do you think would have performed much better in a different era of Grand Prix racing?

[EERO]

I've got one, angst, Jean Alesi in a Ferrari 312t from 1975.

Jim Clark, Mr. Fast and Perfect in a McLaren MP4/15

Jackie Stewart during the turbo era

TGF in a Mercedes Benz W154

[Dino IV]

Varzi, Nuvolari, Rosemeyer, Caracciola, Wimille, Ascari, Fangio, Moss, Brooks, Clark, Gurney, Stewart, Peterson, Lauda, Andretti, G. Villeneuve, Prost, Senna, M. Schumacher and Häkkinen.

Nice idea, Marshall!
Firstly the driver's. What do you want to compare? The wild superdrifting top guns or the controlled ones who get their act best together over race distances rather than in all out speed. I prefer the first ones, the all out speed masters. Gilles isn't comparable to Lauda in any way for instance. Varzi was nice but Vicenzo Lancia was more Villeneuve-like in those days. Häkkinen and Ascari have lots of similarities. As for Stewart, the best driver of his era, but Rindt was the fastest. Same goes for Prost and Senna and in way less magnitude for Schumacher and Häkkinen. Etc. For that reason I'd leave Varzi, Carraciola, Ascari, Stewart, Lauda, Andretti, M.Schumacher and Häkkinen out of my Ultimate GP.

8 out, 8 others in.
Firstly Mr. No Fear Stefan Bellof. You want this race on the Nurburgring? No doubt, he's on pole, whatever the car.
The others: Stuart Lewis Evans, Jochen Rindt, Tom Pryce, the young Jody Schekter, the young Nelson Piquet, Jean Alesi and last but not least Juan Pablo Montoya .
Together with the others: Nuvolari, Rosemeyer, Wimille, Fangio, Moss, Brooks, Clark, Gurney, Peterson, G. Villeneuve, Prost and Senna.

Secondly the car. Not even a relative youngster like Piquet would make it in a race under 2000-conditions, let alone the boys from the fifties, who already in those days where quite old.
Maserati 250 F is a great choice and was a fantastic GP-car. But I'd prefer a more advanced dynamics car like from the eighties designed by Chapman and Murray and fitted with the Matra V12. Imagine 20 of those V12's screaming past at Bergwerk .

Grid: Bellof, Senna, Peterson, Clark, Rosenmeyer, Schekter.
Race: Senna, Bellof, Clark, Prost, Piquet, Montoya

Cheers,
Dino

[angst]

EERO - Alesi Ferari 312T - excellent.
I always thought 1974/1975 were the best years for RACING. So many cars were competitive. So basically just move any year's drivers into this era and see how they do.
Imagine this year's drivers in 312Ts, M23, 007, BT44, DN5, March 751, Hesketh. That'd sort them out..