World GT Championship

[Mal]

Has any one seen the article in the September issue of 'Top Gear Magazine' It gives an interesting viewpoint on the future of sportscars. I dont know how much is based on fact but it will make for an interesting discussion:

To quote a few extracts:

'Ferrari 575, Aston DB9, Lamborghini Murcielago. Imagine that lot racing around LeMans, Spa or Monza. Well it will happen. A World GT championship starring 'mainstream' production supercars rather than 'silhouette' racers should be unleashed on the worlds great race tracks in 2006'

'The team owners, the sponsors and the FIA have finally recognised that what we really want in one global championship, where supercar manufacturers car create race-ready examples of their exotica'

'Sports cars racing has become too obscure an area on motorsport for regular car enthusiasts to relate to. Weve had to endure the likes of Courage, DBA, Zytek, Dome and WR strutting their meaningless stuff in poorly supported events of differing status'

'With so many disparate sub divisions in existance - including LMES, GARRA, SRWC, and ALMS - supply has overwhelmingly outstripped demand. And the decision makers have only recently started to question whats gone so wrong.'

'Only a unified stance will give one of the purest forms of racing the return to prominence it deserves'

[Mark Barton]

Well provided it was done properly it would be a good thing - I've always hoped that the LMES series represented the beginnings of a move back towards the "proper" (and well supported) sportscar endurance racing that I used to love in the Group C World Sportscar Championship days. I suspect that the "Top Gear" WSC wouldn't include prototypes, but fortunately they're not in charge.

As for:

Originally written by Some Ignorant Journalist
'We've had to endure the likes of Courage, DBA, Zytek, Dome and WR strutting their meaningless stuff in poorly supported events of differing status'

I suspect he drew the short straw last weekend, and it was the first time he'd been to a race that lasted longer 90 minutes and didn't have hundreds of thousands of corporate guests to fill the stands. Sadly it's the sort of ill-informed inflamatory that passes for journalism and does them no favours at all. I'm all for constructive criticism, and finding ways to make things better, but insulting the teams that make up the sport in its current form, and the fans that enjoy it is just plain ignorant.

Anyway, fingers crossed! Let's just hope they make a good job of it...

[LC2guy]

This is typical of the shoddy journalism that comes from this magazine, this pays absolutely no regard to the teams that have kept sportscar racing going over the last few years. Absolute Drivel IMHO.

[FIRE]

Maybe it would help if the media themself would pay more intention to other motorsports instead of focussing only on F1.

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by FIRE
Maybe it would help if the media themself would pay more intention to other motorsports instead of focussing only on F1.

No, no, no.......

You have surely realised by now?

There simply is no life whatsoever beyond F1......

(No matter how crappy the F1 show may be..... )

[Kicking-back]

At the risk of being controversial - it's easier to sell sportscar racing to the average punter if a Ferrari or Aston Martin wins Le Mans than a Lola or Zytek.

[Mal]

Whilst this article is typical of Top Gear, it is true that there is now a more coordinated approach I am sure we all hope it continues to develop in the future. However, private teams and constructors are and always have been an important element of sportscar racing and as I have said in the past I do not feel that the big manufacturers should be allowed in at the expense of the LMP cars

[Cadete]

Yes, K-B, it is easier, but it takes nothing away (it might even add) to the value of the likes of Lola, Zytek, or even WR that they they stick around and try to race on their own.

It would be interesting to see an article like this about 60 or more years ago: "And we had to endure seeing a small team like Ferrari with no significance at all in Le Mans yet again." The person who wrote that article in Top Gear should remmember that no team starts in the top, and that big names today started like the Zyteks.

[pounetbf]

Originally posted by Cadete
It would be interesting to see an article like this about 60 or more years ago: "And we had to endure seeing a small team like Ferrari with no significance at all in Le Mans yet again." The person who wrote that article in Top Gear should remmember that no team starts in the top, and that big names today started like the Zyteks.

As far as I know, Ferrari has win the very first year, in 1949....

[Mal]

That may be so, but Cadete has a very valid point in that Ferrari would have been a little know marque at that time. The same is equally true in F1 as traditionally it was small racing teams such as Williams that entered and everyone complained when the manufacturers took over

Back then marques such as Ferrari and Maserati were pure racing teams, they only started building road cars to fund the race team as sponsorship didnt exist then.

[JAG]

This article is just relating to the plan for FIA GT's to become a World Championship in a year or two.

The irony is that the GTS growth/hype has already passed. Sure we have yet to see the Maserati and Aston Martin race, but no new mainstream cars are on the horizon.

It is true that the likes of Porsche and Audi are easier to identify with than Zytek and Courage, BUT, the last couple of years have been very strange in the world of sportscar racing.

The lack of a top class European prototype championship and the rules instability has left prototype racing in limbo.

It is only in 2005/6 that the mainstream manufactuers such as Porsche, Audi etc. will return. I find it amussing when 'journalists' spout off about GT's being more identifiable etc. for the average spectator, yet the most famous sportscars ever are prototypes such as the 917, 956/962, C/D-Types, 300SLR, GT40 etc.

The LMES is overshadowing FIA GT after only half a season, in terms of team/harcore fan support. It is only a matter of time before the media/mainstreem interest arrives as happened in Group C.

Finally GTS cars are undoubtedly great to watch, but after wathcing an R8 with its fantastic cornering/braking etc., and lapping the GTS cars after 4/5 laps, IMO, GTS cars are not worthy of being the top class in sportscar racing and thankfully the ACO agree.

[Kicking-back]

Anyway, exciting times lie ahead, and we're a world away from the mess of 1992/3

[Mark Barton]

Originally posted by JAG
Finally GTS cars are undoubtedly great to watch, but after wathcing an R8 with its fantastic cornering/braking etc., and lapping the GTS cars after 4/5 laps, IMO, GTS cars are not worthy of being the top class in sportscar racing and thankfully the ACO agree.

I'm not sure about that - why not worthy? They're not as fast as the prototypes, certainly, but one of the beauties of endurance racing (for me, at least) has always been the variety of classes and cars racing at the same time. Would you rather see endurance racing as an all-prototype discipline? I don't think I would...

[JAG]

Originally posted by Mark Barton
I'm not sure about that - why not worthy? They're not as fast as the prototypes, certainly, but one of the beauties of endurance racing (for me, at least) has always been the variety of classes and cars racing at the same time. Would you rather see endurance racing as an all-prototype discipline? I don't think I would...

No I love the mixed classes. What I would not like to see is an all GTS/GT Le Mans/LMES as I do not think the GTS cars are 'worthy' to be the headline act if you will.

Thankfully we will never see that for a variety of reasons. How do you accept mainstream manufactuers/racing manufactuers without suitable 'supercars' without getting into the problem area of homologation speacials etc.

FIA GT is fine but it is lacking a certain something compared to Le Mans/LMES/ALMS.:

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by JAG
This article is just relating to the plan for FIA GT's to become a World Championship in a year or two.

The irony is that the GTS growth/hype has already passed. Sure we have yet to see the Maserati and Aston Martin race, but no new mainstream cars are on the horizon.

It is true that the likes of Porsche and Audi are easier to identify with than Zytek and Courage, BUT, the last couple of years have been very strange in the world of sportscar racing.

The lack of a top class European prototype championship and the rules instability has left prototype racing in limbo.

It is only in 2005/6 that the mainstream manufactuers such as Porsche, Audi etc. will return. I find it amussing when 'journalists' spout off about GT's being more identifiable etc. for the average spectator, yet the most famous sportscars ever are prototypes such as the 917, 956/962, C/D-Types, 300SLR, GT40 etc.

The LMES is overshadowing FIA GT after only half a season, in terms of team/harcore fan support. It is only a matter of time before the media/mainstreem interest arrives as happened in Group C.

Finally GTS cars are undoubtedly great to watch, but after wathcing an R8 with its fantastic cornering/braking etc., and lapping the GTS cars after 4/5 laps, IMO, GTS cars are not worthy of being the top class in sportscar racing and thankfully the ACO agree.

Jag:
I can, to a point, understand your point of view.
It was the Cobra Daytona, Ferrari GTO, etc. that made me concentrate on road racing more than other types but it was the Ford GTs and Ferrari P cars that really stirred my gear-head soul.
When the Can-Am went into its, bigger is better, phase, the sports racers and basically related prototypes kept me waiting for the next year or preview issues showing rumors for the next year.
When these series petered off into smaller engines, or died, it was about the same time that the SCCA and IMSA went into their, bigger is better, AAGT-CAT.II phase. I was hooked by the mod. GT type cars from that point on. The Group C and GTP cars were very interesting but the continual screwing around with the rules did the same thing it did to the prototypes in the sixties, killed it off, and I never got as interested in them as I knew, for what ever reason, what happened, was going to happen.

Concerning todays cars, one MAJOR thing is missing that all of the past cars had, make recognition.
Group C and GTP had Aston Martin, Buick, Chevrolet, Ford, Jaguar, Mercedes Benz, & Porsche.
The average person could relate to the names on the cars or at least the engines that were powering them.
With the exception of Audi, todays cars are unknown.
Cosworth was a know name, Ford made sure it was.
Not calling the Panoz cars, "powered by Ford" or something like that, Panoz made a foolish mistake. Ford fans, are still a very loyal bunch; it was stupid not to cater to them.
Zytek, to an average person it sounds like the latest miracle drug.
Courage, may be recongnized but if the car were known as a Courage Ford, as Mclaren and Chevrolet were joined at he hip during the Can-Am days, it would be well known. Without, make or brand recogniton, sports car racing is going nowhere fast.
The Touring and Grand Touring classes still have common makes, or brand, recognition, unless "prototype" racing can get ahold of that missing ingrediant again, it is going to be in a world of hurt.
Ford vs. Ferrari, Chevy vs. Porsche caught peoples attention.
Zytek vs. Bentley powered by Audi causes confusion.

Bob

[Graham Goodwin]

And if you apply the template suggested in the TG article you will have a Le Mans 24 Hours grid that looks rather like that which contests the Spa 24 hours (albeit with the new cars added) Now I love the track and the event but the racing at the top end of the race has been not exactly been thrilling (particularly in the second half of the race) for the last few years, the cars simply don't have the 'je ne sais quoi' of the LMPs.

Yes lets have the factories back involved and if that has to be in GTS then wonderful, but the ACO et al should resist the temptation to dumb down the LMPs - That's the class where the real visceral experiences are there for the taking. Anyone who took time to compare the Bentleys and Audis with the remainder of the field through a medium speed or quick corner will know that the word 'impressive' is one that springs to mind (usually with an expletive attached!). The sight last weekend of the Zytek on a quick lap was a conversation stopper, a real event in itself.

I don't see us losing prototypes any time soon and it will only take one substantial factory effort spotting the opportunity for race wining glory to swing the pendulum again. There are plenty of possibilities (and even more rumours!) out there. As always in this wonderful part of the sport we love lets wait and see.

[Mal]

I couldn't agree with that more, and if the quality of the racing in LMES this year is anything to go by then I hope some of the manufacturers realise that it is a real oppurtunity - what other sport can keep its audiance for six hours solid!

As we all know the great thing about the multi class system is that the racing is always exciting to watch even if the overall race is being dominated by one team.

Now it seams that the R8 has at last got some real competition both here and in America we should be in for a treat even if no other manufacturers join in.

[Mark Barton]

Originally posted by JAG
No I love the mixed classes. What I would not like to see is an all GTS/GT Le Mans/LMES as I do not think the GTS cars are 'worthy' to be the headline act if you will.

Ah, same hymnsheet then

[Kicking-back]

LMES is doing very well for its first season, and I see it going from strength to strength.

[archibold]

At the risk of being a bit controversial and with a marketing hat on, I think the decline of the prototypes is inevitable. They can't unify globally as their sponsorship base is mostly regional (F1 is a better proposition for global exposure, a reasonable deal can be done for 5 a year, which ain't that much in corporate budget terms). Prototypes are not immediately identifiable with the core brand (only VAG have been involved for the last few years does the R8 sell audi's in any numbers ???).

Racing something that is similar to your brand values and customer product e.g. Corvette C5 has more appeal. I think the only new big budget cars we will see will be part of a customer programme (which precludes exotic prototypes) either direct from a manufacturer or through a partner like Prodrive (is GTS/GT e.g. Aston, Maserati)

I may be very wrong but if the R8's are retired by regulation changes (e.g. a plank under the body) and the remaining cars are WR, Courage, Zytek, Lola's etc. It won't be that long before they dissappear as a class. We may not like it, but that is the way things are heading.

[JAG]

Originally posted by archibold

I may be very wrong but if the R8's are retired by regulation changes (e.g. a plank under the body) and the remaining cars are WR, Courage, Zytek, Lola's etc. It won't be that long before they dissappear as a class. We may not like it, but that is the way things are heading.

But the point is that is not going to happen. If you have not followed the sport closely in recent years you may well be under the impression that Audi are the only ones interested in LMPs and GTS is were everyone else is.

However, in only 1999 we had, what, 5 or 6 manufactuers running LMPs, while GTS was struggling.

5 years later GTS has got back on it feat. LMP racing, with the help on the LMES and stable rules (finally), are begining their revival. The LMP privateers are arriving in Europe, with the big manufactuers planning their return in 2005/6.

Audi have stated on many occassions how the R8 program has given them huge publicity, and helped road car sales in Europe and the US. Prototype racing is about promoting a whole brand, not an individual model. The likes of Porsche, Jaguar and Audi have built there reputation with the help of prototype racing.

In the late 1990's a combination of a poor economy, LMP rules insatability, no top class European LMP championship, and a false belief (that has now changed) that F1 can provide all of a manufactuers marketing needs, led to a lack of LMP cars.

F1 is simply too expensive these days. Jaguar, in todays Autosport, say they will pull out if major sponsorhip is not found for 2005. Failing this Arden/Red Bull may buy the team. Jaguars F1 progam has been a dissaster.

[archibold]

JAG

Sorry to contradict (all points are valid etc.) If I recall correctly from my trip to Le Mans in '99 (I've been every year since) there was Toyota, Mercedes, BMW and Audi. Since then we have really been on planet VAG with no one else spending at that level. Would seem to be a bit of a decline imo...

Audi have to shout about it, they have spent a lot of money, I remain un-convinced it has sold many Audi's because of it...FSI is all well and good but I don't think most people associate it with the R8, maybe I am wrong ?

In terms of the Jaguar situation and having a considerable insight into the title sponsor of that team, the 5 to the team + 5 a year into associated events/circuit billboards etc has not returned a good benefit. Hence I suspect that money will be allocated elsewhere in the future (hopefully not more bl@#dy Golf !). I just don't think the cost:benefit ratio for prototype's adds up from a sponsors point of view. If it doesn't that leaves a problem...where are the $$$'s to challenge the R8 going to come from ?

All the above is IMO, only time will tell...

[JAG]

Originally posted by archibold
JAG

Sorry to contradict (all points are valid etc.) If I recall correctly from my trip to Le Mans in '99 (I've been every year since) there was Toyota, Mercedes, BMW and Audi. Since then we have really been on planet VAG with no one else spending at that level. Would seem to be a bit of a decline imo...

It has been a decline, no doubt about it. But, IMO, this has been down to F1, the economy,rules instability and the lack of a showcase Championship in Europe.

With the new regs, and successful introduction of the LMES the privateer teams such as Creation, Rollcentre, Jota, Belmondo etc. are entering LMPs. IMO, it is only a matter of time before Audi, Porsche, Mazda, Nissan etc. also return.

I don't think Audi would be having the record sales it is having in the US if it wasn't for its racing activities there, whether in the ALMS or Speed GT.

In GTS the MC12 is basically a prototype and could, potentially, blow away all of the genuine road car based cars. It now costs more to buy and run a Maserati or Prodrive Aston/Ferrari than a Zytek/Dallara.

All IMO of course

[Mal]

Originally posted by archibold

I may be very wrong but if the R8's are retired by regulation changes (e.g. a plank under the body) and the remaining cars are WR, Courage, Zytek, Lola's etc. It won't be that long before they dissappear as a class. We may not like it, but that is the way things are heading.

But Audi have already said that they have the R9 ready to roll out when serious competition or the rule changes dictate, and they have said they are committed to the sport long term, so there is little change of them going away. Also there have been numerous strong rumours about Porsches return and I have no doubt that they will want overall wins as they would be little point going for class wins as they have been getting publicity from their factory assisted GT teams for years

LeMans over the years has built a lot of its history on David and Goliath battles and with the advance of Zytek and Dyson there is now a real chance of that happening.

Providing the various series continue to unify the rules and coordinate the series then there is no reason why Sports Cars cant return to prominence.

The point about localised sponsorship is a valid one, but I see the way forward as three regional championships (America, Europe and hopefully Asia) which come together for the prestige races (one in each region) for a world title.

[alfasud]

Originally posted by JAG
I find it amussing when 'journalists' spout off about GT's being more identifiable etc. for the average spectator, yet the most famous sportscars ever are prototypes such as the 917, 956/962, C/D-Types, 300SLR, GT40 etc.

I find it amusing that some people think that the Porsche 917 and Ford GT40 were simply prototypes. The Ford GT40 was homologated as a GT (in Group 4). In 1969, the GT40 (Group 4 GT car) beat the Porsche 908 Prototype at Le Mans.... by a matter of metres.

Many would consider 1969 one of the greatest years of Le Mans.... no doubt the anti GT people would think it was a terrible race that allowed the GT car to win.

As for the 917.... also a homologated GT car. There is a very famous picture (or two) showing the entire production of 25 Porsche 917, that the FIA required for homologation in Group 4.

http://www.porsche917.com.ar/xhistoria1969_1.htm

So when we talk about GT vs prototypes, lets remember that the GT40 and the 917 were amongst the GT's.

As for Ferrari in 1949.... of course anyone in 1949, that followed motorsport to the slightest degree, would know that Ferrari ran the works Alfa Romeo team prior to WW2.... so there would be no danger of the "small team like Ferrari with no significance" headlines.

As for a World GT championship.... my only question is this; With a world championship at stake, how do you stop the manufacturers building homologation specials like the MC-12?

If they can solve that problem, it would be a good thing.