National / Club whats the difference?

[ss_collins]

There is a differnce as we all know. Formula Renault is National, Formula Vee is club.

Are there any series that bridge that gap - which ones? what defnes the differences. Anyone fancy trying a list?

Who prefers what...? discuss....

[Woolley]

Phew, good thread, especially when you consider that Lewis Hamilton is officially 'club' driver of the year.

We can either discuss what we think it is, or what it should be??

What it is, is a mess! No distinction between the two, no common organisation, pretty much a free-for all.

What it should be, IMO is:

National:
Primarily professional teams running for profit. Latest vehicles, built and sold for profit OR subsidised by manufacturer. Drivers largely racing for results, possible career or professional drivers.

Club:
Enthusiasts. Teams are like minded people working together for the satisfaction of it. Any vehicles, not necessarily the latest, but where self-built cars may be competitive and may subsequently be sold on for profit (eg OMS hill-climb cars). Drivers are primarily self funded or sponsors are 'involved' rather than purely corporate, and while results may be important, it's the taking part that counts. Participants as likely to be found servicing their leading competitor's car as their own. Let's face it, the important part of the week-end is the opportunity to socialise amongst like-minded people!

I perefer the latter, but it's harder to find all the time.

[diz]

National is what Autosport thinks Club is, but we've been down that track on many threads, so why bother trying to change the hacks views.

National is
must have very expensive motorhomes
must be young up and comers
must have pots of pounds to "make it look professional" must have manufacturer support - until they get bored

BTW FoMoCo don't want Zetec calling Zetec, it is henceforth to be known as FF1800. What little backing have they put in since the birth of FF1600 in 1967? If it was upto me, I would call them Formula 1600 and Formula 1800 with Ford Ovals being banned. Oops I'm off on one again. Back to the thread.
National peeps don't bat an eyelid at the circuit catering charges.
National driver talent is often confused with available budget.

Club is grass roots. Some is 'proper grass roots' and some is rather wealthy people racing sledgehammers to crack nuts.
Club is 750MC - an excellent organisation.
Club is BRSCC, BARC categories that don't fit into the perceived 'premier' levels [should that be 'super club'?]

Give me Club anyday.
p.s.
By the time I had written this, Woolley had replied. He has probably summed it up better than I did

[ss_collins]

just have a rant! might try to do a rough list tommorow. Do you think they should be pitched in diffent ways?

[Mackmot]

Diz do I detect a hint of jealousy.

I think wooley's post was most accurate. It is simply that in National series there are a lot of good engineers and promoters that have realised they can get an income. Drivers who are keen to get to the top try to get the best equipment underneath them which requires spending a lot of money with a race team.

Things are going a bit strange now though because the drivers seem to want the nicest looking motorhomes and trucks as well as the best talking BS'er instead of the best equipment.

[R59]

I thought that to be National, it would need to be MSA Ratified as such : British F3, British Touring Car Championship, British GT etc.., ie: allowed to carry the National title of British.

Club was everything else, from Lewis Hamilton's F-Renault, to F750
I agree though that the BRDC's view of Club Driver of the Year was very blinkered. I have seem some stunning drivers with no budget in much more lowly championships, and not in s-seaters either.

Rob.

[ss_collins]

See I personally would never include Frenault as a club series i'd call it national as with FBMW

[diz]

Originally posted by Mackmot
Diz do I detect a hint of jealousy.

I think wooley's post was most accurate. It is simply that in National series there are a lot of good engineers and promoters that have realised they can get an income. Drivers who are keen to get to the top try to get the best equipment underneath them which requires spending a lot of money with a race team.

Things are going a bit strange now though because the drivers seem to want the nicest looking motorhomes and trucks as well as the best talking BS'er instead of the best equipment.

Not jealous at all Wayne. I suppose I could have moved onwards and upwards - had I been so inclined. Certain drivers I have been involved with have reached the giddy heights way above 'National', but I am happy to stay in the 'Club' world.
It might just be me, but I prefer non league football to the Premiership, I would watch a tennis match in the local park but wouldn't consider going to Wimbledon. By the same token I wouldn't go to a Grand Prix, even if it was held at Oulton. Whenever any sport becomes business, I lose interest
You are probably right about the BS element and even more so about 'there are a lot of good engineers and promoters that have realised they can get an income'.

Imagine how cheap one of your National budgets would be if it was just a driver, a trailer, a Transit van, a decent spannerman and a competitive race car.

[Mackmot]

and we didnt rely on the income to pay the rent

[Woolley]

Originally posted by ss_collins
just have a rant! might try to do a rough list tommorow. Do you think they should be pitched in diffent ways?

Yes, I do think they should be pitched differently. I think club (in my definition) is adversely affected by the National bit. Sure people who discover they have ability and want to move on can use the club as a foundation, but it shouldn't be the reason for being there.

Again if club drivers find they want to move upwards too, they can, but be prepared for more 'committed' driving.

From an officials point of view it helps too. You can report non-sporting behaviour, whereas at a National level more cut and thrust is acceptable - the clubman has to pay all his own bills, remember.

I honestly believe that the first thing that could be done to improve the structure of the sport in this country is to separate club, national and professional racing, and organise the classes accordingly.

[diz]

Originally posted by Woolley
From an officials point of view it helps too. You can report non-sporting behaviour, whereas at a National level more cut and thrust is acceptable - the clubman has to pay all his own bills, remember.

Am I correct in thinking that you are saying 'officials' have one Blue Book and two different ways of interpreting it - depending on whether it is National or Club. Surely not!

It is like saying that murder by a wealthy person isn't as serious as murder by a poorer person.

Do you report less indiscretions at National Meetings?

[Woolley]

Absolutely not. Unfortunately, there's a perception that a bit of rough and tumble is acceptable in some classes (try reporting contact at a BTCC meeting! We do, but why...)

However, in pure club sport it becomes even more unnacceptable (if you get my drift) as this is most likely to be a guy competing on his spare cash, and that minor biff could end his season. At the moment we report everything the same, and probably always will anyway, but we have a better idea of what the competitor is expecting...

Kinda hard to explain now I'm putting it into words. The only thing I can suggest is, imagine some of the tackles that are ok in Premier League football, and then imagine seeing someone else's kid do that to your kid in a school football match. The same foul is given, but the reaction is different - sort of 'ouch' in the professional game, but you really want to stamp it out of kids football. Erm, not sure that really explains it, but I hope you sort of get my drift?

[woodyracing]

Isn't National just the opposite of Regional ??

if a series goes around the country, surely its a National series (club or not).

[ss_collins]

contact is rife in a number of club series... Stock Hatch anyone?

[R59]

Unfortunately, it's a fact of life that when you try to get too much metal trying to occupy the same piece of tarmac, contact will be inevitable.

The closer the competition, the greater the risk of contact.

This is where self control is required.

Adrenalin is that little voice in your head saying "faster, faster, get outta my way"

When the green flag drops, the BS stops.

He who hesitates is LAST

Rob.

[Bob Pearson]

Rob,
Could it be a product of feeling too safe as a result of the all enveloping body. If it were really a fact of life then the same would occur in single seaters and we would all be riding over each others wheels and performing cartwheels wholesale.

[Bob Pearson]

I've just realised that we are all avoiding the main issue of this thread which was to define where club racing ended and National begun. I certainly have thought a lot about this since the ludicrous issue of Hamilton being given a Club racing award and I must admit I canot categorise it in words.
I see Formula Reanult and BMW as the bottom rung of Nationals with F3 above and so on. All other single seaters I see as Club racing. I recall a heated discussion some time ago on T/T between myself and a host of drivers from FF, Vee, Mono and similar when I suggested that BARC Renault was top of the tree in Club Racing. Well, I know we always think our own formula is the best and it is quite natural to do so. My reason then for claiming BARC Renault as top of the Club Formulas was on the strength of its regularily feeding drivers up into National series. ( 3 in 2002, at least 2 in 2003). I really can't see how else to work out who is top of the tree, but I bet some of you can now I have shown my cards!
ZIP, I know it has a firm MSA position, but where that fits in in real life I really don't know.

[JimW]

I don't think anyone has mentioned the new MSA rules on what championships they are going to allow in promoted sport. An extract from the summer press release said:

"The future structure of promoted circuit racing will focus on three clearly defined categories - saloon, single-seater and sports car - and within each category will be level 1 (British Championships), and levels 2 and 3 (National Championships). No championships outside this structure will be permitted to carry the words British or National in their title. [See accompanying chart: National Pro-Circuit Racing.] (I have found the most recent version of this chart at http://www.msauk.org/admin/news/PDFS/2323.pdf )

At the top end, level 1 will comprise the three major existing British championships - BTCC, F3 and GT - with the remaining categories to be filled. Within each of levels 2 and 3, there will be one `open` series and one `one-make` series, totalling 15 championships in all.

[RANT] Why can't the MSA get a decent website? Not only is the current one slow and with appalling navigation but it seems to be one of the "free" domain names as it carries an advert at the bottom of the home page. :confused: [\RANT]

I don't know how this will actually affect what I think of as "club" sport. Are promoted and club mutually incompatible?

Regards

Jim

[ss_collins]

How I think it works is thus.... and correct me if i miss stuff out


National


BTCC
BGT
Porches cup GB
Seat Cupra
F Renault
F BMW
Formula Ford
Zip
Pireli Ferrari
Clios
FPA

Clubbies

Formula Saloons
Britcar
Radcals
VW cup
Vee
FF1600
all 750mc series
Minis
Euroboss (controversial....)


by no means close to a completes list but a general one

[Steve Wood]

This is purely my own interpretation, but I always consider "National" series to have a strong contingent of professional or aspirational drivers competing, and "Club" racing to be purely amateur and just for fun.

[JohnMiller]

Think BTCC runs to International regs?

[ss_collins]

John ignoring permits just what the series are

[JohnMiller]

OK - no problem

[Ian Sowman]

Just from your list Sam I would move Zip, Ferrari, FPA down to Club, and arguably VW Cup up to National (seeing it will be on a promoted package full time next year). EuroBOSS is an oddball...

[Woolley]

On the basis of club being primarily for enthusaists, I would agree with Ian, with the exception of Zip. Having spent a night in a pub with a Zip team behind me, they clearly think of it as a first rung on the career ladder.

I would hesitantly put EuroBoss as a club meet too, as again, it's primarily a fun thing but with serious cars.