Monza chicanes

[BTCC frog]

In the 1950s and 1960s, the Monza track was sans chicanes. This created many classic slipstreaming races:

1953 - A three way battle between Ascari, Fangio and Farina which ended in the world champion spinning on oil at the Parabolica and Fangio coming through to victory.

1965 - Graham Hill and Jackie Stewart fought for victory in the BRMs, with the young Scot taking his maiden win.

1967 - Jim Clark charged from a lap down after a puncture to lead the race until his fuel pump broke on the final lap, leaving John Surtees to pass Jack Brabham at the final corner to win.

1969 - Jackie Stewart used a long fourth gear to get ahead of his rivals out of the final corner and win the race and the championship.

1971 - Famously, the closest finish in Formula 1 history, as a large pack of drivers fought for the lead throughout and Peter Gethin emerged victorious for the only time in his career.

These slipstreaming races were unique and could only be found at Monza (and, in the early days, at Reims). But in 1972 three chicanes were added to the track for safety reasons and Monza lost some of its uniqueness and became less special a race.

However, with the recent decision to ditch the final chicane at Catalunya significantly improving the track, I wonder if it is time to revisit the need for chicanes at Monza. Could it be possible to have a race at Monza with no chicanes? The cars would be heading into Curva Grande at very high speeds, but they are much safer in the past, and perhaps the barriers could be improved on the outside of the track, so that it would still be safe. The other two chicanes I think could more easily be removed without making the track dangerous.

It wouldn't make Monza a flat-out race because there would still be the braking points at the Parabolica and the Lesmos, and I think it would be really interesting to have a race where the cars were mostly flat out and could slipstream each other, even if it wouldn't be as extreme as it was in the 1960s, and would make Monza a particularly special and unique race.

[Richard C]

I struggle with seeing how they could make this work. Especially if it was only based upon improvements to barriers. I can imagine they could create special barriers that would decelerate a car over a longer distance (still short distance, but long compared to current barriers), but I also see something like that being particularly fragile. Meaning if it happens once, it could take a long time to rebuild (long red flag). I just don't see there being a practical solution for some type of new barriers given the speed and the existing run off footprints.

Removing the first chicane would be straight forward as the circuit still exists there. But it would create run off safety issues at Curva Grande. There would be more substantial work to undo the second chicane as it straddles the old circuit. Like before this would create run off safety issues at first Lesmo. Reworking Curva Ascari back to it's original design (Curva Vialone) would be significant. The circuit would effectively go through the current gravel trap/run off and new runoff would need to be created where seating is currently located. Even then the required run off may not fit into that footprint. Even if you didn't revert to the old layout, the need for extended run off would remain.

And in the end, if I remember correctly, hasn't it been a historic challenge to make changes due to tree protection around the circuit? Assuming no magical barriers could be created, I think any removal of chicanes would trigger reshaping of run off areas and any reshaping would require cutting down trees. I mean just look at how deep the run off is for the entry to Curva Parabolica. They would want/need something similar for Curva Grande, Lesmo and Ascari/Vialone!

I just don't see this being practical given the challenges.

Richard

[peebee2]

Behind Curva Granda is the park wall. Behind the wall is a road.

[S griffin]

Chicanes are very rarely fun and plenty of drivers and fans would be happy to see the end of most of them. Maybe they could replace the first chicane with a sweeping right then a left. The second chicane could be replaced with something similar. The Variante Ascari could easily be made into a tight double apex left hander

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Chicanes are very rarely fun and plenty of drivers and fans would be happy to see the end of most of them. Maybe they could replace the first chicane with a sweeping right then a left.

Great idea, they could knock down the historic, protected banking.

Originally Posted by S griffin

The second chicane could be replaced with something similar.

It really couldn't.

Originally Posted by S griffin

The Variante Ascari could easily be made into a tight double apex left hander

It really couldn't.




Anyway if you did all this it really wouldn't be Monza anymore.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Chicanes are very rarely fun and plenty of drivers and fans would be happy to see the end of most of them. Maybe they could replace the first chicane with a sweeping right then a left. The second chicane could be replaced with something similar. The Variante Ascari could easily be made into a tight double apex left hander

This post makes me physically ill.

[BTCC frog]

I still think they could do it. I don't think the barrier at Curva Grande would need to be moved back. Yes it would be a fast corner, but there are plenty of fast corners at Jeddah, for example, with a wall on the outside which would be just as dangerous if somebody got it wrong at high speed. If a car spun off at Curva Grande having not taken the chicane first they would still have that short trip through the gravel before hitting a barrier, which could be made as safe as possible. What would make that any more dangerous than someone spinning off at any other fast corner on the calendar (like Verstappen at Copse, for example)? As for the other two chicanes, I know the track would need to be moved to turn it into more of a single corner, but that has been done at other tracks, has it not? It would be slightly expensive but F1 could afford it easily, considering how much better it would make the Monza track. The question is about run-off and the speed of a potential crash there, but again I don't think this is any more dangerous than any other track, including the new last corner in Spain, for example.

Unless there are some specific rules which I don't know about which say that these corners are just over the line in terms of safety? Richard Casto's mention of the required run-off suggests that they might be. But they don't seem particularly dangerous to me, as a non-expert, compared to any other fast corner in Formula 1.

I can see it is not straightforward and might be difficult to make is safe, but I don't think it is impossible.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

I still think they could do it. I don't think the barrier at Curva Grande would need to be moved back. Yes it would be a fast corner, but there are plenty of fast corners at Jeddah, for example, with a wall on the outside which would be just as dangerous if somebody got it wrong at high speed. If a car spun off at Curva Grande having not taken the chicane first they would still have that short trip through the gravel before hitting a barrier, which could be made as safe as possible. What would make that any more dangerous than someone spinning off at any other fast corner on the calendar (like Verstappen at Copse, for example)? As for the other two chicanes, I know the track would need to be moved to turn it into more of a single corner, but that has been done at other tracks, has it not? It would be slightly expensive but F1 could afford it easily, considering how much better it would make the Monza track. The question is about run-off and the speed of a potential crash there, but again I don't think this is any more dangerous than any other track, including the new last corner in Spain, for example.

Unless there are some specific rules which I don't know about which say that these corners are just over the line in terms of safety? Richard Casto's mention of the required run-off suggests that they might be. But they don't seem particularly dangerous to me, as a non-expert, compared to any other fast corner in Formula 1.

I can see it is not straightforward and might be difficult to make is safe, but I don't think it is impossible.

Pretty much everything at Monza is heavily protected by law.

And it would destroy a unique circuit and atmosphere.

Not to mention the lack of practicalities of moving the track, Curva Grande would be massively quicker than Copse, where there is around double the runoff anyway.

If you haven't been there I would highly recommend trying to visit and taking the time to explore fully, including the inside of the GP loop, the club circuit, obviously as well as the banking.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

This post makes me physically ill.

Ooh sorry for trying to add a bit of colour. Pathetic

Surprised so many people on here want to keep the chicanes. Seems to me they have got so used to them being there they seem to think they add to the circuit. To be fair they have been some fun chicanes, but I would never have put Monza's ones on that list

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Surprised so many people on here want to keep the chicanes.

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

I'm not sure why some people are so vehemently opposed to this suggestion.

For me (and I think this is were many of the comments are coming from) is not so much about wanting to keep the chicanes as it is the impracticality of removing them for multiple reasons. Especially at Monza.

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Chicanes are a blight on motor racing, and watching cars driving through them (or mostly over them) is ugly.

That is painting with a wide brush. All chicanes are a blight on racing? Really?

This thread is F1 in a nutshell. People can't agree on what they want be it engines, cars or circuits.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

I love me some Senna S style chicanes tho! To me nothing says F1 more than a quick series of of corners in alternating directions to show off the speed and lateral movements/change of direction of these race cars!

It is a good question as to what exactly is a chicane. When is some level of "back and forth" a chicane and then on the other extreme Maggots/Becketts at Silverstone or the S curves at Suzuka? As to some being enjoyable, without putting much thought to it, the chicanes just before the start/finish at Suzuka and Spa jump out at me as being ones that I think add to the quality of the racing.

Richard

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Ooh sorry for trying to add a bit of colour. Pathetic

Surprised so many people on here want to keep the chicanes. Seems to me they have got so used to them being there they seem to think they add to the circuit. To be fair they have been some fun chicanes, but I would never have put Monza's ones on that list

I'm glad that in almost a decade of us talking on this site you still don't recognise jokes.

People don't want to keep the chicanes. They want to keep racing at Monza. And removing the chicanes and turning every corner into the most dangerous corner in F1 isn't how to achieve that.

[chillibowl]

in addition to making things more dangerous, wouldn't removing the slow speed chicanes only leave us with long straights followed by high speed corners (and the occasional high speed chicanes/complexes - the Senna S at Interlagos was the one that i was thinking about) thus making overtaking more difficult?

certainly these current configuration of cars have a much harder time following closely on higher speed circuits and if the desire to see this is an effort to encourage more slipstreaming (as the OP suggests) then the most expedient solution to achieve this/get the cars close enough to slipstream in the first place would be to add even more DRS zones or rather allow DRS to be active on more parts of the track?

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

This thread is F1 in a nutshell. People can't agree on what they want be it engines, cars or circuits.

right!

blame it on a poor calendar flow of races so far in this largely run away season adding to a lot of boredom, but i feel like we have a thread here where those who position themselves as anti DRS have somehow found a round about way to suggest a scenario where even more DRS is needed?

and speaking of round about ways...if you get rid of all the chicanes, are we not just basically talking about oval racing?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

This post makes me physically ill.

I quite like Monza with some chicanes on it! It's a great circuit.

Wouldn't a better candidate to return to previous flat out layout be the Österreichring (Red Bull Ring), assuming there would be permission to cut down the forests as required to build sufficient run off areas.




It seems like the western part of the circuit still exists as a ring road, however some grandstands and possibly forest would need to be cleared to restore the eastern part of the circuit.

Do folks recall why the Österreichring was shortened and slowed in the first place? Were the reasons illogical and unreasonable?

Notably one of these 'unacceptable' chicanes was already installed on the circuit in 1977 -- ruining the circuit? -- such that the superior 1975 layout must be reinstated?

Highlights from the 1975 Austrian GP on the earlier layout

It seems the 1975 layout had little to no run-off areas at all, but of course this could be expanded when the original circuit is reinstated.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

I quite like Monza with some chicanes on it! It's a great circuit.

Wouldn't a better candidate to return to previous flat out layout be the Österreichring (Red Bull Ring), assuming there would be permission to cut down the forests as required to build sufficient run off areas.




It seems like the western part of the circuit still exists as a ring road, however some grandstands and possibly forest would need to be cleared to restore the eastern part of the circuit.

Do folks recall why the Österreichring was shortened and slowed in the first place? Were the reasons illogical and unreasonable?

Notably one of these 'unacceptable' chicanes was already installed on the circuit in 1977 -- ruining the circuit? -- such that the superior 1975 layout must be reinstated?

Highlights from the 1975 Austrian GP on the earlier layout

It seems the 1975 layout had little to no run-off areas at all, but of course this could be expanded when the original circuit is reinstated.

Safety was primarily the concern, particularly after the 1987 GP, which had multiple accidents, prompting the FIA to drop the GP from the F1 calendar. Changes were made but there were still safety concerns regarding other racing series, like Hans Stuck's crash in 1995 Super Touring Cup. This lead to a major rebuilding program and the track being reconfigured, hence the shortened version.

racingcircuits.com has a history of the track which is worth reading.

https://www.racingcircuits.info/euro...rrichring.html

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Chicanes are very rarely fun and plenty of drivers and fans would be happy to see the end of most of them. Maybe they could replace the first chicane with a sweeping right then a left. The second chicane could be replaced with something similar. The Variante Ascari could easily be made into a tight double apex left hander

Eh NO

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Chicanes are very rarely fun and plenty of drivers and fans would be happy to see the end of most of them. Maybe they could replace the first chicane with a sweeping right then a left. The second chicane could be replaced with something similar. The Variante Ascari could easily be made into a tight double apex left hander

I'm not sure why some people are so vehemently opposed to this suggestion. Chicanes are a blight on motor racing, and watching cars driving through them (or mostly over them) is ugly. I particularly like the Ascari suggestion.

Given the incredible acceleration of F1 cars, they are travelling at pretty high speed through Curve Grande anyway. How much faster would it be if they had a longer run at it? Or maybe Curva Grande could be tightened. The same for Lesmo 1. It's all definitely worthy of some consideration by people who know better than we do (not Herman Tilke!). After all, I would have considered that the change at Barcelona was thinking the unthinkable, but someone thought it and made it happen.

[chillibowl]

I love me some Senna S style chicanes tho! To me nothing says F1 more than a quick series of of corners in alternating directions to show off the speed and lateral movements/change of direction of these race cars!

For sure tho many of the chicanes introduced by Tilke and others to slow the cars down after long straights can indeed be boring but to say they are a blight?!?

Yas Maina for example, and I could be wrong here, was in its original configuration built without chicanes and I don’t recall anyone ever thinking it was a good race track right? In fact I think they had to bring tilke in to fix that circuit by adding chicanes which did make it mildly better but still it’s not a very good track for f1 cars imo.

Anyways, I’m curious to know if everyone here even defines chicanes in the same way?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Chicanes are a blight on motor racing

Hmm, some people like superspeedway racing, some people don't. The Indy 500 worries me, I think averaging over 340 km/hr for hours is excessively dangerous. It seems a mere fluke that most crashes are merely glancing blows. Spectators and competitors seem to become numb to the danger after a short while, supposing that averaging such speeds is perfectly reasonable.

I appreciate that racing drivers are able to switch off the part of their brain responsible for fear, but would rather myself lap on a lower speed circuit with larger run off areas than a higher speed one without. You are less likely to roll your MG Maestro turbo on a circuit with 60 km/hr chicanes than 200 km/hr sweepers! They may say it is possible to take the sweeper flat out, but do you really want to find out if it isn't (best case scenario: you leave the circuit backwards but don't hit anything and don't roll, assuming the Maestro is a road car without a roll cage, it doesn't have the integrated roll over protection system of a more modern vehicle)...

Originally Posted by S griffin

They usually are added because people aren't imaginative enough to try and find a different solution to slowing cars down, without taking away a challenge too much

So you would remove the Senna chicane on the Adelaide Parklands circuit and replace it with a large runoff area to the outside of the corner?

The other gravel traps live there all the time, so that would be a permanent gravel trap reducing the useable park space and good luck getting permission to cut down historic trees. For the short time that there was no event at the circuit, some folks were even keen to remove the permanent section of circuit entirely and return it to park...

All for something which I am not convinced would improve the circuit.

You will have just moved the problem to the next Wakefield Rd/East Terrace corner which will now need a much larger runoff area as well, owing to the higher approach speed.

[marcel82]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Chicanes are very rarely fun and plenty of drivers and fans would be happy to see the end of most of them. Maybe they could replace the first chicane with a sweeping right then a left. The second chicane could be replaced with something similar. The Variante Ascari could easily be made into a tight double apex left hander

Variante Ascari is one of the best corners in racing. don't touch it.
the first chicane in Monza, honestly... it's the scene of so many incidents, I wonder why they keep it for "safety reasons".

But I don't know how they'd change it. Yes cars are very safe these days, but an F1-car going into Curva Grande with brake failure and no chicane... that would meet the wall pretty quickly.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by marcel82

Variante Ascari is one of the best corners in racing. don't touch it.
the first chicane in Monza, honestly... it's the scene of so many incidents, I wonder why they keep it for "safety reasons".

But I don't know how they'd change it. Yes cars are very safe these days, but an F1-car going into Curva Grande with brake failure and no chicane... that would meet the wall pretty quickly.

Ascari is one of those weird corners. Awesome to drive, but difficult to see what it's all about spectating.

[rika]

No please keep Monza as it is.


There are lots of tracks that need changes but Monza should not be on top of that list!

[S griffin]

For spectacular chicanes, nothing beat the old Dingle Dell at Brands. Going to the BTCC finals last year and watching from the GP loop on the Saturday, I thought it was a shame that it was no longer there. Seeing cars leap over the kerbs there must have been a sight to all those who witnessed it live.

Most chicanes though don't add much. They usually are added because people aren't imaginative enough to try and find a different solution to slowing cars down, without taking away a challenge too much

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

For spectacular chicanes, nothing beat the old Dingle Dell at Brands.

I don’t often agree with you but that is a great shout. I remember being there with F3000s and seeing them always just hope they landed pointing the right way. Awesome.

[Sodemo]

The “rules” they apply to these new F1 street venues don’t seem to apply to classic race tracks, it’s almost as if they are working from two different rule books on what is safe and acceptable.

[S griffin]

Well I'm not here to discuss stupid jokes, I'm here to discuss racing

I accept the chicanes are here to stay, but they could be tweaked a little. My biggest hate is how easy it is to cut chicanes