AMR & Oreca: Slow diesels further, or we quit

[Gingers4Justice]

Interesting reading in this week's Autosport. Oreca and AMR want out if Diesels aren't pegged backed even further.

All I can say is grow up. I'd say they are now about where they should be for a new team compared to one team thats been it the biz for 3 years, the other for a decade.

Basically, these two are saying
"We're coming in, but the others have an unfair advantage because they have years of development, can't you cancel that out?"

Dave Richard's is claiming that the World GT championship is a viable alternative. Sometimes, he talks out of his behind.

[ger80]

Let them quit - Audi supports LM racing since 10 years ...

[Nortad]

Originally Posted by ger80

Let them quit - Audi supports LM racing since 10 years ...

right... racing against... nobody... (except the privateers) thats like winning by default of the opposition...


nobody really cares about diesels, and yes further restriction is needed


(i know what im saying isnt great, but im not in a mood for long speaches and explaining my reasoning... )

[kingkai]

Surpriced with Dave Richards comment.
At Spa last weekend I heard at AMR that they are planning to make a AM for the new GT1 rulles but they themselves won't be racing it for the next years because they deffenatly want to stay in LMP1. The new GT1 car is for customers..

[Gil Abobeleira]

Originally Posted by Nortad

right... racing against... nobody... (except the privateers) thats like winning by default of the opposition...

Tell that to Mr. Peugeot on the last two years, or to Cadillac and Chrysler at the beginning of the millenium

[ger80]

Originally Posted by Gil Abobeleira

Tell that to Mr. Peugeot on the last two years, or to Cadillac and Chrysler at the beginning of the millenium

and even if so, thats not Audis fault ...

[Gingers4Justice]

Sorry about misquoting Richards, yes, he was calling for the Petrols to have a break.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Sometimes, he talks out of his behind.

And the ACO dont !!!

If they are going to ban V12 & V10 in LMP1 ..... what about banning diesels. Its the biggest upset since the 3.5 litre days , cuz it wasnt handled properly in the first place .

And no ..... I dont want to see AMR or Oreca pull the plug cuz we need everyone we can get for a decent championship .

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

All I can say is grow up. I'd say they are now about where they should be for a new team compared to one team thats been it the biz for 3 years, the other for a decade.

Imagine if petrols were suddenly given an power advantage (if you could even call that "advantage"). Audi and Peugeot cries - just "grow up", right?

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by deggis

Imagine if petrols were actually favoured. With a clear displacement, restrictor and boost advantage. Altough petrol wouldn't really need advantage. Audi and Peugeot cries - well, just "grow up", right?

I don't think the diesels have any more of a performance advantage than if they would with a petrol engined car anymore, their pace is through development.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

I don't think the diesels have any more of a performance advantage than if they would with a petrol engined car anymore, their pace is through development.

Agreed, I think people just focus way too much on the petrol vs. diesel thing.

It's not about that, it's Peugeot Sport/Joest against privateer efforts. How can anyone expect them to be at the pace of the works cars? I don't understand...

And yes, Aston Martin is somehwat of a factory effort. But since they didn't even build their own car, you really have to consider them to be a semi-privateer effort in terms of development and performance.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

I don't think the diesels have any more of a performance advantage than if they would with a petrol engined car anymore, their pace is through development.

Originally Posted by Acid09

It's not about that, it's Peugeot Sport/Joest against privateer efforts. How can anyone expect them to be at the pace of the works cars? I don't understand...

Maybe the thing that Audi and Peugoet have been the only factory teams and still remain the biggest teams have little bit saturated the situation, but aren't you basically suggesting that a petrol-Peugeot or petrol-Audi would somehow bypass the performance deficit set by the regulations?

[Félix]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Interesting reading in this week's Autosport. Oreca and AMR want out if Diesels aren't pegged backed even further.

All I can say is grow up. I'd say they are now about where they should be for a new team compared to one team thats been it the biz for 3 years, the other for a decade.

Basically, these two are saying
"We're coming in, but the others have an unfair advantage because they have years of development, can't you cancel that out?"

Dave Richard's is claiming that the World GT championship is a viable alternative. Sometimes, he talks out of his behind.

Speaking of talking out of one's behind... What I've heard is not exactly what you have there.

What Richard says is that he understands that restricting the diesels further 1 month away from the race is not good, so he suggests giving the petrol cars and break so they have to adapt. Yes he feels they're too fast and I think the truth in that debate will be even more clear after LM.

Then there's the reason for threatening to quit: they were told by the ACO that they would have a fighting chance in P1 before they committed. The board wanted to stick to GT but Richard got his way... but now they're "flying guests from all around the globe to witness their cars fighting for 7th place at LM" (his words).

Hugues de Chaunac has been saying for months that he's selling his stuff to his sponsors by talking about challenging for the lead at Le Mans (this year and even more next year, if there's a next year).. and now he's stuck in the middle of the fast petrol car group and realistically 5 seconds a lap away from diesels come June. If he wants to keep on moving forward, he needs his partners to be happy (again, watching a fight for 7th place is not so great when you spend big $$$$$) and he needs to feel he can gain the pace he doesn't have yet somewhere - but the cutting edge car he just introduced will still leave him pretty far from the diesels.

The lesson here: these two organizations are serious, have big sponsors and are professional enough to race elsewhere (as they have in the past) if they feel they have a better chance and that it makes the ones paying the bills happier. But they can also be fantastic opponents to Audi and Peugeot with the great cars they have, if the rules allow them to run in the same class.

[Tom908V12]

Originally Posted by Félix

.

...

Then there's the reason for threatening to quit: they were told by the ACO that they would have a fighting chance in P1 before they committed. The board wanted to stick to GT but Richard got his way... but now they're "flying guests from all around the globe to witness their cars fighting for 7th place at LM" (his words).

...

Aston to fight for 7th at Le Mans ???? Richards forgot the R10 Kolles and the Pesca 908...

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by Tom908V12

Aston to fight for 7th at Le Mans ???? Richards forgot the R10 Kolles and the Pesca 908...

The Kolles R10's wont get anywhere near the chequered flag.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

The Kolles R10's wont get anywhere near the chequered flag.

What makes you say that? There's no reason why atleats one of them won't, they're reliable cars.

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

What makes you say that? There's no reason why atleats one of them won't, they're reliable cars.

Not watched the LMS so far this season? there driver squad make Enge look reliable.

[JAG]

The ACO have already gone against type and restricted diesels further mid season, they'll be restricted again next, then we'll see all new engines in 2011.

In the meantime everyone will argue their cause, not for an even playing field, but for their own advantage, as always.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by JAG

In the meantime everyone will argue their cause, not for an even playing field, but for their own advantage, as always.

Quite true.

[Fogelhund]

ACO racing is dangerously close to falling on it's face, with FIA GT taking over.

[TWK]

How much of that five seconds (over eight miles) is the rule advantage of diesels? How much is the excellence of Joest, for instance, or Allen McNish and his mates?

Excuse me, if after listening to Mr. Richards in ALMS, I'm a little skeptical that he puts the work into the team, car, and drivers that he puts into whining about how unfair it all is to him. Whether he has a point or not, he is absolutely insufferable.

[GT6]

It would be nice to see the AMR cars up with the deisels but at spa they were some way slower, however the pesco and oreca cars were keeping pace for a fair chunch of that race and those teams are truely privateers. Mr Richards should look at developing and perhaps his cars will be more competative rather than restrict other teams.

[KA]

Originally Posted by GT6

It would be nice to see the AMR cars up with the deisels but at spa they were some way slower, however the pesco and oreca cars were keeping pace for a fair chunch of that race and those teams are truely privateers. Mr Richards should look at developing and perhaps his cars will be more competative rather than restrict other teams.

If anyone's read the Autosport piece, Richards isn't asking for the diesels to be slowed further, but for the petrol-engined cars to be given a break:

Originally Posted by Dave Richards

What I am saying is don't penalise them, but help us. I would like it if the ACO were to say to the petrol teams 'If you want a bigger diameter restrictor, then you can have one.....The danger is, if the ACO don't do anything, teams like AMR and ORECA may not be able to find the sponsorship to come back next year

Is he right? I don't know. Is the gap between the Pugs and Audis and the rest purely because of the diesel to petrol equivalency, or just because they're factory teams racing against privateers. To me, there are two indications we need to see if we're going to decide that- the first is a full-force petrol-engined factory effort at Le Mans (Are you listening Porsche or Acura?), the second is a proper competitive privateer diesel outfit- I reckon the performance of Pescarolo's Pug (and to a lesser extent the Kolles R10s, though I've got doubts about the competence of that effort going on their LMS showing so far...) at Le Mans might go some way to proving the point either way- if Henri's 908 turns out to be five seconds a lap faster than the petrol cars all week, then maybe Richards has a point....

[cdsvg]

Originally Posted by KA

If anyone's read the Autosport piece, Richards isn't asking for the diesels to be slowed further, but for the petrol-engined cars to be given a break

Is the article online anywhere, or is it just the print edition?

Before lowering the budget in 2009 I expect Peugeot and Audi to spend around 150m each in 2008 (incl ALMS and LMS), and now around 100m. For privateers like Pesca and Oreca I expect around 10m. Is this right?

I think the numbers for the factories would be significantly less than that, maybe something like 30m for 2008. Car development costs are a different matter though.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by cdsavage

I think the numbers for the factories would be significantly less than that, maybe something like 30m for 2008. Car development costs are a different matter though.

I'm sure Peugeot announced a 150 million euro total budget for the current 3 year campaign, which would equate to an (average) annual budget of 50 million euros.