Parting of the Ways?

[old man]

With a very healthy 30 starters in the LMP classes at the weekend and the success of the production engined Lola Aston the Sportscar section of the sport as we know it looks very healthy and dynamic. Audi, Peugeot, Porsche and Accura are seeing the value in marketing terms so it becomes a big market for the small race car manufacturers, a success story

GT Racing on the other hand is only healthy in GT2, 3 and now 4

Are we reaching a position where Sportscar racing will be ACO based with series only catering for LMP's and the LM 24 featuring the same whilst the Ratel FIA series runs with it's own big 24 hour event at Spa as a totally separate series on a world stage

Is it too difficult to televise a 4 class series with equal coverage to all classes and even to provide sufficient information to spectators at the track with 4 winners posible in a race? Are we coming to a parting of the ways for Sportscar and GT racing?

[diffuser]

One could go into long oppinionated views on this, but the answer is actually rather simple. If the ACO could guarantee itself a full field of 55 Prototypes for an extended period of time - say 5 years? - GT's would be gone wuicker than they can lap LeMans.
GT cars are let into LM whenever the Prototypes don't fill the grid. Last time this happened was 1993, when the WSC failed and we had the smallest starting field in recent memory. One year later, the GT's were there to fill up the grid.
The interesting fact is that Don Panoz some years later took a field that was slowly getting back up in terms of prototypes and made the 4 class emergency option a steady rule in the ALMS. That proved rather popular with the crowds and so the ACO let it continue. But you're right, the number of Prototypes is increasing again and the number of GT's is dwindling - I'd say soon after the coupes rules are instated in 2010 we will see Prototypes only at LeMans again.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by diffuser

Last time this happened was 1993, when the WSC failed and we had the smallest starting field in recent memory. One year later, the GT's were there to fill up the grid.

I think 1992 was that smallest grid. The field was bolstered in 1993 by the addition of the GTs after the FIA effectively killed off the WSC.....

It's a point which will inevitably provoke great argument, but my money would always be on a full grid of protos at Le Mans. Period.

[diffuser]

Right, got my years confused, sorry. It was '92 with just 28 starters.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I think 1992 was that smallest grid. The field was bolstered in 1993 by the addition of the GTs after the FIA effectively killed off the WSC.....

You also need to take into account the world recession that was biting very hard in the early 90's. Without that the situation may have been different and we should not overlook the fact the world if facing another one now.

Bob, Its clear you hate Le Mans with as much passion as others that love it, but to say its a zit on a gnats butt concerning sales is wide of the mark, if that was the case NO ONE would bother and the race would be Gentleman drivers only without sponsors. It still ranks as a mjor event dispite what you want to think.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Nordic

You also need to take into account the world recession that was biting very hard in the early 90's. Without that the situation may have been different and we should not overlook the fact the world if facing another one now.

Bob, Its clear you hate Le Mans with as much passion as others that love it, but to say its a zit on a gnats butt concerning sales is wide of the mark, if that was the case NO ONE would bother and the race would be Gentleman drivers only without sponsors. It still ranks as a major event despite what you want to think.

Major yes, so is Indy, but not near anything such as it once was, both used to garner huge press world wide, now they are simply acknowledged semi-world wide.

It seems that your view of LeMans is firmly locked back in the sixties and seventies when it attracted the best of Detroit and Hollywood.

Both races are the last bastion of the old days, but ain't what they used to be.
Of course there was that 25/8 thing at Indy, it kinda reminds me of the invite only status of LeMans....

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Major yes, so is Indy, but not near anything such as it once was, both used to garner huge press world wide, now they are simply acknowledged semi-world wide.

It seems that your view of LeMans is firmly locked back in the sixties and seventies when it attracted the best of Detroit and Hollywood.

Both races are the last bastion of the old days, but ain't what they used to be.
Of course there was that 25/8 thing at Indy, it kinda reminds me of the invite only status of LeMans....

For me, whether or not it attracts huge press is completely immaterial, as it is to the vast majority of the spectators who attend the events.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by old man

Are we reaching a position where Sportscar racing will be ACO based with series only catering for LMP's and the LM 24 featuring the same whilst the Ratel FIA series runs with it's own big 24 hour event at Spa as a totally separate series on a world stage

That would be great because the ACO-IMSA conncection would be severed in the twinkling of an eye and US racing could get healthy again.

[diffuser]

It's not the ACO's fault that the ALMS is struggling...

[AU N EGL]

With Intentet Television having both protos and GTs covered would be possible.

[JAG]

It's preferable to have 35 top quality protoypes and 20 quality GT's (preferably in a single class), than 35 quality prototypes, then scrapping around for another 20 protoype entries.

In the LMS you will never have many more than 30-35 prototypes, so a quality GT field is needed for 1000k races.

[johntt]

The only problem class is the GT1s, IMO they need to merge GT1 and GT2 under GT2 rules. Otherwise keep the mix of LMPs and GTs at LM.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by JAG

It's preferable to have 35 top quality protoypes and 20 quality GT's (preferably in a single class), than 35 quality prototypes, then scrapping around for another 20 protoype entries.

While I have absolutely no problem with the GT cars on the grid, it would be easy for the ACO to have a full 55 Prototype grid, if they created a proper LMP3 class for VdeV cars and other small prototypes. There are plenty of those in Europe and the cars are reasonably fast.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by JAG

In the LMS you will never have many more than 30-35 prototypes, so a quality GT field is needed for 1000k races.

Why ~45-50 gids are needed for LMS rounds? Not quantity over quality. WSC in its glory years had 30-40 proto grids.

For me 2 LMP classes and one GT class sounds best too. Just feels stupid to have two weak classes when you could have one stronger. Imho one major problem with GT classes is that you just know that all the best teams are not there competing together (Le Mans too excluding the factory teams) because the GT teams are so split between FIA GT, ALMS and LMS. It's hard to get excited because of this.

Afaik ACO wants to keep the "variety" and the all four classes. Manufacturers wants to go GT2 and have one class... but what does SRO want?

Even more crappy GT grids coming in LMS/ALMS when/if FIA GT gets the World Championship mandate? The WC thing itself is imho great. And if GT2 and GT1 ever merges, I wonder would FIA GT still keep it's "no factory teams" policy?

.

[gucom]

The arguments make sense, but I'd love to see GT cars stay... I guess I like GT's better than prototypes and I can't remember a Le Mans era without GT's, I have only read about it, so for me they're an integral part of the race... My ideal situation would be if the GT1 and GT2 were merged into one class taking up some 20 cars, leaving room for 35 prototypes...

I also see no real problems in the ACO / IMSA link to be honest (despite the oddities of the IMSA changing rules in favour of spectacle instead of consistency), and if US racing is considered unhealthy, why isn't there something else? No1 is forcing anyone to be in the ALMS, but its popularity is increasing as far as I know, so they must be doing something right (although ofcourse LMP1 and GT1 are in bad shape there)...

[Purist]

I think GT2 is a good class, but of the GTs, it's the GT1s that really excite me. I think the biggest thing that would help there is re-evaluating the allowed modifications, particularly the allowance of greater changes simply based on a higher production volume. I won't deny that the Corvette is a potent car to begin with, especially for the money. However, it shouldn't automatically get a potential leg up on Aston Martin, Ferrari, Maserati, etc because GM can produce more Corvettes than those other companies can hope to produce in terms of DBR9s, 575GTCs, MC12s, etc.

Bob, just one problem with your little theory. Among the works-supported programs, only Porsche's is centered around the US. Audi, Acura, even Corvette are all looking to Le Mans as the pinnacle of what they want to achieve. The same is true of the serious/top-notch GT2 teams running 997 RSRs and F430 GTs.

So Corvette is looking to the big European race. Meanwhile, the rest of the major racing branches of the "Big Three" are too entrenched in a series where they're racing cars that are spec and don't even look like street product to give a crap about anything else. Most of Trans-Am was composed of American cars; where's that series now?

Without the Le Mans carrot, what is the point of the ALMS? And sadly, I'm not terribly enthralled with Grand-Am. I watch it, and can enjoy it while I watch, but I don't have that passion for it. So the sportscar alternative here in the US is not one I'm too excited about.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Purist

I think GT2 is a good class, but of the GTs, it's the GT1s that really excite me. I think the biggest thing that would help there is re-evaluating the allowed modifications, particularly the allowance of greater changes simply based on a higher production volume. I won't deny that the Corvette is a potent car to begin with, especially for the money. However, it shouldn't automatically get a potential leg up on Aston Martin, Ferrari, Maserati, etc because GM can produce more Corvettes than those other companies can hope to produce in terms of DBR9s, 575GTCs, MC12s, etc.

Bob, just one problem with your little theory. Among the works-supported programs, only Porsche's is centered around the US. Audi, Acura, even Corvette are all looking to Le Mans as the pinnacle of what they want to achieve. The same is true of the serious/top-notch GT2 teams running 997 RSRs and F430 GTs.

So Corvette is looking to the big European race. Meanwhile, the rest of the major racing branches of the "Big Three" are too entrenched in a series where they're racing cars that are spec and don't even look like street product to give a crap about anything else. Most of Trans-Am was composed of American cars; where's that series now?

Without the Le Mans carrot, what is the point of the ALMS? And sadly, I'm not terribly enthralled with Grand-Am. I watch it, and can enjoy it while I watch, but I don't have that passion for it. So the sportscar alternative here in the US is not one I'm too excited about.

Detroit watches its homebase, LeMans is like a zit on a gnats butt concerning sales.
Beyond this forum and similar pages, LeMans is like Indy, some place people have heard of before, but not much now.
Bob

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Beyond this forum and similar pages, LeMans is like Indy, some place people have heard of before, but not much now.
Bob

I have to say that in 7 years posting here, that's the most ridiculous statement I've ever read.......

Ask the quarter mill who went to Le Mans last year.....

I think you need to qualify your use of the word 'people'........


IMO, as always......

[Aysedasi]

As for numbers, if we have to have GTs at Le Mans (and I recognise the fact that the involvement of GTs has enabled Le Mans to survive since 1992), the 35/20 split is OK with me. In fact, now that we have moved on a little from a GT2 populated almost exclusively by 911 derivatives, its a great improvement on where we started post WSC in 1993/94.

[GT6]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

As for numbers, if we have to have GTs at Le Mans (and I recognise the fact that the involvement of GTs has enabled Le Mans to survive since 1992), the 35/20 split is OK with me. In fact, now that we have moved on a little from a GT2 populated almost exclusively by 911 derivatives, its a great improvement on where we started post WSC in 1993/94.

I totally agree the format is working very well for Le mans at the moment, record numbers of spectators and good quality full grids.

However, the ACO must look to the future and anticipate weak class entries to see if changes need to be made to ensure that they are not left behind. The growth of the non GT1 classes outside of Le mans and its stable of races should mean changes to reflect the GT Classes must be coming soon.

[Le Vieux]

Leave Le Mans alone!!!!!

Every year the entry is oversubscribed. If it ain't broke...........

[SebringMG]

Think the Gts have a place on the grid tbh - a grid full of protos would lose some of the variety for me - 2 proto classes and a single GT class would be perfect split 35 to 20

[Aysedasi]

How do you define an amateur?

(As a matter of interest, really..... )

[Nordic]

IMHO there is room for a couple of short sprint races in a season, (like the Norsring money races of the 80's) two seperate races would allow two drivers to take part, but the majority of the races should be 1000k or 6 hour.

[diffuser]

Norisring is a DTM fixture now, they'll never let that go. And PreQ would mean we'd never see that Lavaggi again! It's always nice to know who will be last, so you can give them an extra cheer

I think basically those racing formats like Prequalifying or money races just aren't "in" today... same with F1, everything in racing is very organized at the current time... if it weren't, people would propably want it to be. That's what's great about being a fan, you can always want the things you don't have.

Nevertheless, I too would love love to see a championship like that. With 35-45 Prototypes (LMP1 & LMP2 ), no GT's, because those have the FIA GT already. And then you have them together at Le Mans only, which would make that race a little more exclusive.