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6 Dec 2022, 17:58 (Ref:4136270) | #1 | |
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Building a historic saloon race car
Hi. I am building a 60s historic saloon race car. Just wondered how much i am able to lighten the car. Many thanks Mark
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6 Dec 2022, 18:41 (Ref:4136273) | #2 | ||
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Totally dependent on the championship/series/club you intend to race in/with. For example cars prepared to Appendix K are allowed very limited modifications whilst those entered for CSCC Swinging Sixties can be significantly lightened.
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6 Dec 2022, 20:42 (Ref:4136287) | #3 | ||
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The technical regulations for HRSR/HSCC Historic Touring Cars are on the HSCC website and describe what modifications are allowed to bodywork/chassis etc. and minimum weights for each class and sub class are stated. Presumably CSCC and CTCRC have similar tech regs which should be on their websites. I know CTCRC allow less freedom than HSCC.
As rww states, Appendix K regulations allow less freedom still and many areas of technical aspects are strictly defined by the homologation papers for individual historic touring cars. These papers are available for a fee from MSUK. Some on here may have the papers you require. What car are you building? |
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7 Dec 2022, 13:50 (Ref:4136348) | #4 | ||
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Yes, CSCC regulations are on the website, but AFAIK apart from the Classic K which may be restricted by FIA requirements, none of the series have any minimum weights......
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Richard Murtha: You don't stop racing because you are too old, you get old when you stop racing! But its looking increasingly likely that I've stopped.....have to go back to rallying ;) |
7 Dec 2022, 23:33 (Ref:4136392) | #5 | ||
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If you are preparing to FIA historic regulations you can find and download the Homologation document free of charge here:-
https://historicdb.fia.com/ Is it a BMW you're building? there's about 10 pages of models and variants from early 1960s through to late 1990s :-) |
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a salary slave no more... |
9 Dec 2022, 07:59 (Ref:4136534) | #6 | |
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Thanks to the general acceptance of 'anything goes' 500kg should be your maximum target. Why use steel and aluminium when titanium and magnesium are all on the shelf
As David has pointed out, the FiA papers list weights. Given none of the cars had safety cages or space frames then, they're a realistic target, especially if you rip out all the character of the car. |
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9 Dec 2022, 08:10 (Ref:4136538) | #7 | |||
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Quote:
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Incognito: An Italian phrase meaning Nice Gearchange! |
9 Dec 2022, 11:45 (Ref:4136557) | #8 | ||
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I think he got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning, as my mother used to say!
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9 Dec 2022, 11:49 (Ref:4136558) | #9 | ||
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I'd have though 500kg for a J40 pedal car was a bit high........
Apologies to original poster for our slight deviation of track....... |
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Richard Murtha: You don't stop racing because you are too old, you get old when you stop racing! But its looking increasingly likely that I've stopped.....have to go back to rallying ;) |
9 Dec 2022, 13:55 (Ref:4136571) | #10 | |
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I prefer to consider it fact based sarcasm.
Anyone able to prove otherwise? |
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9 Dec 2022, 20:47 (Ref:4136615) | #11 | ||
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9 Dec 2022, 18:46 (Ref:4136605) | #12 | |||
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Not forgetting that when finishing the prep of your car if the weight is too low you can add some ballast (place of the said ballast up to you). If I'm correct the total weight includes the rops and all the safety devices. May be the easiest way is to contact a reknown team. |
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10 Dec 2022, 10:48 (Ref:4136681) | #13 | |
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In all seriousness, If we knew what the marque/model was we may be able to offer sensibe/daft suggestions in more detail.
They 2 big ones are Do you have a **** load of money to burn and do you want to be competitive. If the answers are no and yes, in that order, you'll need a lot of time. Many of us here have had a bit of success, spent lots of money and time. What's changed significantly in recent years is the type of development, not just garagiste ingenuity but full blown modern racing technological advancements, which have rendered old cars irrelevant and uncompetitive. I've said many times before, the spec of the cars and homologation details haven't changed for 50-60 years, but cars are continually getting faster. They look, measure, handle, go, stop, do everything, differently. |
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9 Jan 2023, 20:36 (Ref:4139430) | #14 | ||
Rookie
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 49
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Hi. Sorry for the lateness of the reply. I am building a 1965 volvo amazon 2 door. I was thinking of building to part k but worried that the car will just not be competitive in that format. Therefore i am wondering as mentioned previously to build as light as possible and then add weight to get it to the desired weight if i want to go part k route.
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10 Jan 2023, 07:06 (Ref:4139514) | #15 | |||
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If I'm not clear above, what do you think could be invented now to improve its performance level that had not been found in period? Not clear? You want a front runner? Easy to find which brand/model won every race/championship in period. No Volvo? Bad luck! Still you can have fun with it. As Zef says, 180 hp for 1050 kilos is decent and I remember the handling was very good. |
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13 Jan 2023, 19:27 (Ref:4140085) | #16 | ||
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Hi. As much as it would be nice to have a front runner, it is more important to have fun and to have a car that will help me to learn to race.
I think under part k i may struggle. It is an original ruddspeed tuned car, however, i dont think fia recognise the modifications ruddspeed did. I did look at the hscc rules and if i build to there rules, i believe i can build the engine to a maximum of 2.4l? I have a custom head, forged pistons etc, which i could use to build an engine whilst i use the current engine. From what i know, i should be able to get 200bhp plus. Am i right on the engjne rules? Thanks mark Quote:
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10 Jan 2023, 13:23 (Ref:4139556) | #17 | |||
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Quote:
https://www.bonhams.com/auction/2413...sis-no-345256/ Either way, might be worth trying to talk to a rally version owner to see what parts are available. BTW, CSCC does not have a minimum weight limit for Swinging Sixties, build it as light as you practically can. |
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Born in the Midlands, made in the Royal Navy |
10 Jan 2023, 14:57 (Ref:4139571) | #18 | |||
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Consul Classic 940kg Consul Capri 963kg Anglia 737kg Cortina 787kg |
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Balls of steel (knob of butter) They're Asking For Larkins. ( Proper beer) not you're Eurofizz crap. Hace más calor en España. Me han conocido a hablar un montón cojones! Send any cheques and cash to PO box 1 Lagos Nigeria Africa ! |
10 Jan 2023, 16:40 (Ref:4139593) | #19 | ||
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I agree with what Gordon and Joe say.
If you look at the Historic Touring Car Technical Regulations on the HSCC website you will see that your Volvo Amazon could run in class K2 at homologated weight and with the modifications allowed in it's FIA homologation papers. Alternatively, it could race in the HRSR classes at 890kg, including the weight of the driver (say 80kgs togged up), so, somewhere around 810kg for the car and use an engine up to 2100cc, provided such engine comes from the same Volvo 'family'. Therefore, it would seem to allow the B20 2 litre engine to be used. |
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10 Jan 2023, 12:48 (Ref:4139552) | #20 | |||
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I have won a fair amount of races over the years, but only by using a known formula that others have followed with the front running cars. OK an oddball car might attract attention for a while, but if it's at the blunt end of the results after a few meetings you will soon wonder why you spent a fortune on it! If you are satisfied with carrying on like that then go ahead as it's your money, and if there was a series for Volvo Amazons then that would be fine Just to put things in perspective, to make my Anglia competitive it cost my sponsors (and me) more than my house cost in 1984 just for the engine! Going back to the Amazon, I assume that you actually own one ? as it will be considerably cheaper to buy one already prepared and try and improve it, as most people involved in racing will tell you. Whatever you decide good luck and I hope that you can prove us all wrong |
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Balls of steel (knob of butter) They're Asking For Larkins. ( Proper beer) not you're Eurofizz crap. Hace más calor en España. Me han conocido a hablar un montón cojones! Send any cheques and cash to PO box 1 Lagos Nigeria Africa ! |
10 Dec 2022, 15:56 (Ref:4136697) | #21 | ||
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Always seem slightly odd when a poster asks a question then doesn't respond to any replies......
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Richard Murtha: You don't stop racing because you are too old, you get old when you stop racing! But its looking increasingly likely that I've stopped.....have to go back to rallying ;) |
10 Dec 2022, 18:19 (Ref:4136705) | #22 | ||
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The question was: I am building a 60s historic saloon race car. Just wondered how much i am able to lighten the car. Again I'd say you can lighten it as much as you possibily can, then put some ballast to reach the homologated weight. Depending on the particular car and the targeted series… Et voila!
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10 Dec 2022, 18:24 (Ref:4136707) | #23 | ||
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10 Dec 2022, 18:44 (Ref:4136711) | #24 | ||
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11 Dec 2022, 09:40 (Ref:4136762) | #25 | |
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