Standard Production Racing returns for 2007

[DriversKnow]

The BARC/Dunlop Sport Maxx Cup, announced on ten-tenths before Christmas, is looking promising for 2007.

This weekend at Thruxton two cars (VXR Astra and Hyundai Coupe) were used to evaluate the standard Dunlop road tyre that will be used in the cup.

I think that this has the potential to appeal to a range of competitors, from professional teams at Cupra or GT level to club racers wanting to run a road legal car on a sensible budget.

What do you reckon?

More at driversknow.co.uk/greatbritishfestivals

[R59]

Production S1???????????

[DriversKnow]

Yes, Dunlop sponsor Britcar s1, but they are longer distance races for a diverse group of cars from BTCC cars to Group N on slicks.

This is for road legal 'sub - group N' - back to the days of the old Prodasaloons in the 80s and early 90s.

[BertMk2]

Do we really need yet another new class? Especially one so close to an existing category.

[Al Weyman]

Trouble with these things there is always some cars that are more 'standard' than others isn't there?

[Al Weyman]

Then there will always be one must have model that will dominate everything.

[R59]

Then hopefully the BARC are ready to weild the cunning penalty stick to level the playing field, be that weight, or inlet restrictors.

The main problem is it's another series vying for the racer's buck. And most of the old prod-saloon teams seem to be happy doing Prod S1 in Britcar.

It's probably too much of a step up for the 750MC stock/hot hatch boys due to the cost of building a car, compared to running a £3K Fiesta or Saxo/106.

It would have to be really good "if" I had say 30K available for the car, and running budget of another £20-30K. I'd be weighing it up against Prod S1, and at the moment, longer races (more track time) wins.

Mind you, there were some Spoon Honda Integra's available recently for £12K, brand spanky new, ready to prep.

If someone wanted me to build them a car for it, I'd do it.

Rob.

[carrera]

888 can supply a ready to race Astra for a few beers short of 50k. Is spending that sort of sum club racing?

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by carrera

888 can supply a ready to race Astra for a few beers short of 50k. Is spending that sort of sum club racing?

It doesn't take a lot to get to that sort of figure, have you ever worked out what your car has cost?
There are a few cars in at least one of the race series you participate in that would be close to that figure if not way over.

[Tim Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by falcemob

It doesn't take a lot to get to that sort of figure, have you ever worked out what your car has cost?
There are a few cars in at least one of the race series you participate in that would be close to that figure if not way over.

But some of those cars are genuine WRC or DTM cars, or competing on a level with those - that level being seriously modified. From how I understand the Production Maxx Sport (delete as applicable) to be run there are very few modifications allowed - brakes are standard, suspension is standard, engine is "standard". Very far from S1, as I understand it. With some of the cars that Gary races with you can see that they should cost big money to develop, a near standard astra for 50k is less easy to justify.
If 888 feel they will get customers at 50k then good luck to them. You could get a car on the grid for a fraction of that cost. The whole idea of going up against a team like 888 who will spend a small fortune developing is off-putting, tho; at least to the likes of me - so my 4k Saxo idea will stay unfulfilled for a little while at least.

Also, weren't cars that become obsolete/too old from this series being pointed towards the Toyos series? Has it been confirmed that the Toyos will be running with Classic Thunder next year, or is that just rumours?

[Alan Cherry]

Funnily enough, I was reading regs on BARCs web site today ( no I wasn't if my boss is reading this!) - seems a bit like the DTRC format with a shorter race followed by a longer race ( although 2 qualifying sessions ) races a bit longer than DTRC. Registration is £100, entry fees are £280 for two races, or £320 for the rounds where the second race is even longer and you run two drivers. Seems more for people hoping to progress in the saloon category, or the more wealthy amatuer- I suspect what you will save on engine/chassis development will be spent on body panels (ok I'm just an old cynic).
I'd go and watch it - If someone else wanted to pay for it -I'd do it
However, I reckon someone run by a profesional team will win it, and as Al says one car will be dominant- there are different classes, but people only talk about overall winners - not the guy who wins class D but finishes 17th overall. Ok gents place your bets now what is going to dominate ? list of eligable cars on BARC website- how about 888VXR or a Civic type R ?

[Al Weyman]

There you go they are off with the fairys before it has even started!

[R59]

But that's 888 building a car for you.

You could build one yourself for much much less - but will it be a front runner? Do you want to just race with the "it" crowd, or race at the front?

With Dunlop's backing, and marketing, it should make finding a sponsor a little easier than riding a unicycle with one leg in plaster with your hands tied behind your back.

What you have to realise Al, is that people who are likely to go for this series won't be the "genuine" clubbies like me and you who turn up on their jack jones, running their own car, it'll be the established teams like Mardi Gras, and others that run cars in Production S1. Perhaps they will have a car that does both - on slicks in S1, and on road rubber for Sport Maxx.

Who know's, but this time next year, it'll either be a hit, or a miss.

I was talking to an engineer a while back to said that in his many years of experience of motor racing, on both sides of the fence (competitor, and official), what the public want to see are "angry cars". Meaning things like the old Superloons, Thundersaloons, and maybe the new V8 Supercars.

There are purist "enthusiasts" that eat sleep and breath single seaters, but joe public wants to see "angry cars". Cars that stir the soul.

Like Rockingham - the public go to see the SCSA cars, big angry V8's, not the buzzing pickups, regardless of how good and close their racing is.

The answer is to get the public through the doors, fill the stands, and subsidise (or fully pay for) the grid. Then you will have reached success.

Oh there I go again, like a scratched record.

Perhaps someone will listen one day.

Rob.

[Al Weyman]

Oh I agree hence the Camaros, if I wanted to win I would build a Pug!

[archibold]

Sorry I have to say this is exactly the same as BRSCC tried a few years ago to resurrect Prod Saloons. A number of us built Group N spec cars and turned up to race expecting a big grid as we had been promised (I had a nice Pug 106 professionally built)...the grid never materialised (4 cars was the most we managed) and I was lucky to sell the car for track days (the regs specified weld in cages whereas stock hatch are bolt in) to recover anything from the car or spares package.

Consequently I would be very wary of building a car for a new series like this until I had seen the grid...

Since then been in Britcar/Prod S1 and very happy.

Don't want to put anyone off going racing, but be wary of any new series where the car won't be saleable elsewhere/have another series it can be used in.

Archibold

[Woolley]

If it hoovers up ½ doz undersupported series and clears a bit of space while having a marketing budget to throw at it, then I'm in favour. If it's yet another series, then please, no. The target should be to bring together a host of competitors to one sensibly priced championship, preferably with the support of the current organisers of each of those series. It would be so nice to be proved wrong for once.

[DriversKnow]

That is the hope Woolley......

It leaves BARC with a nice hierarchy of (mainly Dunlop sponsored) championships to cater for all cars.

BTCC and Sport Maxx Cup for contemporary cars in either S2000 or standard spec, ModProds to cater for cars too old for Sport Maxx Cup, and then Classic Touring now covering everything from the fifties to the nineties.

All of these are well placed to scoop up cars from lesser supported championships.

With the Sport Maxx Cup on the Dunlop Great and British package, we hope to be able to announce a TV deal soon as well.

[redshoes]

What series are you expecting to 'scoop up' cars from. I can't think of many where the cars would be easily transferrable.

Production S1, VW Cup, Castle Combe Saloons spring to mind but all are likley to be too highly modified to Maxx Cup and none are that poorly supported.

[Al Weyman]

I personally really like the concept of a series like this but I think and this is why they have all failed in the past (IMHO) there is a fundemental fly in the ointment which is unfortunately whether we like it or not people cheat. It is a fact, it is undeniable, I have seen it on quite a few occassions when running ModProds on anything from hiding rosejoints within rubber bushes, bending solid axles, secret nitros injection fed from the tubes of the roll cage etc etc etc. I could go on and on.

Now with modern mapped ignitions and computers the opportunities to cheat are further enhanced and even post and pre race power testing will be a nonsense as power outputs can be changed by the flick of a secret switch.

For this to be work the cheating has to be addressed, how you do this I don't know (anyone got any suggestions?). We had a buying plate in ModProds originally and although never used and often slatted I noticed after it got voted out by people that wanted to spend massive amounts on this club racing championship set up to deter this, things started to go down the pan. Coincidence maybe but a fact never the less.

[greenamex2]

I'd bet £100 that this won't succeed.

EERC Production S1 caters for the people with bigger budgets.

750MC Stock hatch caters for people with smaller budgets (for the car if not the body work).

BRSCC LMA Saloons caters for all budgets.

I'd be surprised if people move en-masse from these to a new series and risk getting stung if it got small grids and was cancelled.

And yes, they have a large number of people seriously interested. If everyone that was 'seriously interested' in Mod Prods turned up to a race we would have two grids.

[Al Weyman]

And yes, they have a large number of people seriously interested. If everyone that was 'seriously interested' in Mod Prods turned up to a race we would have two grids.

Dennis you are not wrong. I was amazed by the amount of people that were not just seriously interested but serious enough to get their hands into their wallets and actually pay the registration fee but still never to appear!

Also because of my afore mentioned comment on cheating or tweeking the rules however you want to put it and the prices quoted for a prepared car I would say that in reality to be a front runner in a 'stock' specification car can in fact cost more than allowing certaing modifications as allowed in ModProds and this was the basis of the championship. I looked at all these little cheats people wer doing and wrote them into the rules making them legal so no one had an advantage which is how in the end rose joints were infact allowed as an example. I learnt this lesson from running a Sunbeam Talbit in Road Saloons and being told I had to run 'standard' road springs till I caught the co-ordinator changing his behind a shed at Snett. I changed mine and the next meeting put it on pole after a year of trying, what a joke!

[carrera]

So how did the tyre evaluation go DK?

[DriversKnow]

The evaluation of the standard Dunlop Sport Maxx road tyre took place at Thruxton earlier this month, using the 888 Astra VXR Cup prototype and a Hyundai Coupe V6 with track suspension.

The wear and grip characteristics were excellent. Thruxton, due to its long high speed corners and abrasive surface, is the biggest challenge for any tyre and Dunlop were delighted with the results.

We had deliberated whether to run this series on tyres such as the Dunlop Formula R or Direzza, which are used in many one make series and are a track orientated road legal tyre, but we feel that a pure road tyre such as the Sport Maxx is more appropriate for a production class, even if it is slightly slower in the dry.

The Astra was very well balanced for a 250bhp front wheel drive car. I expected torque steer, but it was very composed. On road tyres, this type of car will reward the smooth driver.

There has been a lot of interest in the Sport Maxx Cup for 2007, and next week we have another preparation expert unveiling an 'off the shelf' car, this time for the lower powered class. Look out for this is the press.

More details at barc.net

[gixxer]

As long as the costs are kept in check otherwise the championship will go the way the last few in the past have ie dwindling entry's that's not what us spectators want to see,we want big grids and close racing so is the ballast going to be added?.
It would also be good to see the championship at Castle Combe as due to noise issue's we don't get to see the BTCC so at least a national saloon championship would go a long way to help fill the void

[DriversKnow]

Yes, ballast will be added where necessary. With the current boom in the hot hatch market (Focus ST, Volvo C30 T5, Golf GTi, Seat Cupra, VXRs, Clios) plus the junior warm hatches (Fiesta ST, c2 vts, Mini Cooper, Micra 160 etc) and throw in the odd coupe (RX8, TT) there is potential for a very interesting mix of cars.

And we hope to be at Castle Combe too. The dates for the 2007 Dunlop Great and British Festivals will be announced later this year, and Combe was the venue that our teams voted as the one they'd most like to go back to, so we will aim to please!