Fia Htp. Enough Time Left?

[terence]

After reading various mags/speaking to different people,it would seem as though some grids will be a bit depleated in 2007 because of the lack of the newly required paperwork,has anyone heard of this or is it purely heresay?As I understand it ,the FIA will be hard pushed to accomodate all of the renewalls in time because of the tardiness of the owners to get the cars sorted out in time,its not the FIA who are to blame.

[Peter Mallett]

*Note to Jeremy Hall - Don't bite its only Terry with a quiet day on his hands. *

[Peter Horsman]

But what races/series does one actually need the new HTP papers for? I applied for mine in August 2006, and haven't got it yet. That's no adverse reflection on Marcus Pye, who has quite a number to deal with I understand. He rightly takes time to ensure that a particular spec is paper'able.

Maybe other organisations are not so fussy, and so we have (again) a two tier system!!

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by Peter Horsman

But what races/series does one actually need the new HTP papers for? I applied for mine in August 2006, and haven't got it yet. That's no adverse reflection on Marcus Pye, who has quite a number to deal with I understand. He rightly takes time to ensure that a particular spec is paper'able.

Maybe other organisations are not so fussy, and so we have (again) a two tier system!!

Maybe he is trying to decide which is the correct engine for a 17!!

[rogerwills]

I suspect the big issues will be for European run events rather than say Masters/Top Hat etc who seem to know the cars that are run and are perhaps more relaxed than say their teutonic bretheren.......

[Peter Horsman]

There are many correct engines for a 17 (!). Sadly, all quite expensive.

[john ruston]

Masters need the new paperwork for their series

[Jeremy Hall]

Minor hobby horse, but can I make it clear that the FIA has no role in the issue of HTP, or only a very minor one in allocating each one a number, and further takes not one penny piece of the fee charged by the ASN.
In the case of UK the MSA is wholly ansd solely responsible for getting the paperwork out.
Realistically there may be 400 HTP still needed for 2007, Marcus has an editorial role in the process, though the MSA are now loading more responsibilty on the Inspectors. If this is the case the MSA stand to receive 100 grand in income before, say April, cost of Marcus lets guess at 4 grand, perhaps just as a reasionable duty of care for the licence holders MSA might consider some help. Certainly as a member of the MSA Historic committee I will be strongly promoting that view.

[PeterMorley]

Have just filled in a blank form for a car that has an old homologation form.

What struck me was that the form is exactly the same, just a few sections removed from it - even the section numbers are the same (at least it made it easy to fill the form in).

Given the information on the new forms will be exactly the same as on old ones, why insist on new forms????
The old ones could be added to a register just as easily as the new ones..........

As far as I can tell the Belgian fee is somewhat lower than the UK, 50 euros to the FIA for the form and 75 euros for the 'inspection'.

Might be an idea to pop over and get forms here (as you are entitled to do under European law)!

(At the same time you could save the cost of the trip by having your road car serviced here - parents had the misfortune to break down in the UK and couldn't believe how much they charged in the UK to replace a fan belt, or how long it took, and as for failing to tighten it up that was taking the pi$$ - won't be going near Sytner's in Nottingham ever again).

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by terence bower

As I understand it ,the FIA will be hard pushed to accomodate all of the renewalls in time because of the tardiness of the owners to get the cars sorted out in time,its not the FIA who are to blame.

A lot of cars aren't ready until just before their first event - engine builders are flooded at this time of year, chassis rebuilds etc all take time.

If they insist on the car being presented in a complete, painted, condition it can be difficult to do so well in advance of the event.

The FIA know this is normal - many current cars are only accepted (crash tested, homologated etc) in the days before their first event.
It isn't so different with old cars, and it was only made clear very late in 2006 that old forms (the ones with exactly the same information on) would not be accepted in 2007 - the amount of 'work' (form stamping) generated by this was predictable so they should be prepared for it.

[Jeremy Hall]

Let me repeat myself the issuning of HTP is nothing to do with the FIA. The World Motor Sport Council accepted the new HJTP in October 2004 and it was avaialble to all ASN from then onwards. At the October 2004 meeting it was also agreed by WMSC that it would come into force obligatorily on 1.1.2007, from an FIA perspective nothing at all has changed.
If ASN have failed to get a grip on the situation that is not the business of FIA, after all all the major ASN are on World Council and they all agreed to the change. The MSA have repeatedly been asked to publiciise the situation in Motorsorts Now and have totally failed to do anything about it, I was reliably informewd that there was some editorial one quarter but at the last moment they sold the space for advertising so the article was chopped out.
Finally with regard to your comment about RACB paying FIA , I sassure you they do not.Let me say it again FIA get nothing at all from any ASN in respect of any HTP.

[terence]

No names,but several owners/drivers are refusing to have the cars inspected .If that is the case ,then I suppose there will be depleted grids,which in turn could result in higher entry fees,or no racing!Peter,how could you even think that,I,ve been at work all day

[esper]

Well all of this is is last years pieve of cake for most of the dutch! I will never forget the picture act. To put some rusty bumpers on my racehealey!!!!!!!
Then for the money somebody came all the way to stick the hologramsticker on a "visible" place, much to the pleasure of international Scrutineers................ Since 2006 Scrutineering can cause Hernia.

[zefarelly]

I got my papers long before the cut off date/change date/panic period so I'll be back on the sofa relaxing in a mo, the only thing I have to panic about is getting the car prepped by March

I was thinking having read a few articles recently how one becomes an inspector ? ? ? I'd love to get involved with that kind of thing ( I find it fascinating, sad I know) although my knowledge is restricted somewhat to tin tops and lotus/fords mostly

[terence]

Zef,I,d already spoken to someone ages ago about this very subject,no reply so I guess they dont need help

[TorqueWench]

I must admit I have been a-wondering about these HTP paper things - I intend to take Saloon and GT cars up to 1980 to the Ring in 2007 - will they all need papers - or is it only pre '71? This will be an ADAC meeting, and therefore international, although probably not an FIA-event.

Any thoughts Jeremy? (Say Hi to Judith from me as well!)

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by TorqueWench

I must admit I have been a-wondering about these HTP paper things - I intend to take Saloon and GT cars up to 1980 to the Ring in 2007 - will they all need papers - or is it only pre '71? This will be an ADAC meeting, and therefore international, although probably not an FIA-event.

Any thoughts Jeremy? (Say Hi to Judith from me as well!)

If the event / race has been registered as NEAFP then it runs under National rules and car papers are not required.

[Jeremy Hall]

Don't bet on that ! Many , indeed most, countries in the world base their motor sport entirely on the FIA International Sporting Code and its appendices, and those include Appendix K. The effect is that, at least in the first instance the cars must comply with the technical specifications and have an HTP to prove that. For example Masters will run at many NEAFT events but will require HTP.The words NEAFP stand for National Event with Authorised Foreign Participation, and if the national rules are to Appendix K you need an HTP. You may find that some countries have a one year waiver.
Hi Sarah.

[kickstart]

Does anyone know if the requirement to have HTP's will spread to Barry Sidery-Smith's races ? I really hope not as my model of car (crossle 9s - zetec) does not have any international history and therefore as I understand matters can not get an HTP.

[JRTM]

I think this is an interesting topic and one that is confused by several parties who dont seem quite to be on the same wavelength. For example, I recognize that the FIA dont make any cash out of this but some folk certainly do and the costs appear to be quite arbitrary from country to country and local deal to local deal.

in addition it seems to me that there is NO doubt that there will be a large number of cars who need papers who dont have them in time - there is a huge waiting list and the MSA have not even acknowledged many applications that were submitted months ago. Where I do criticize the FIA is the unwillingness to even countenence a delay to the system because this is not entirely the fault of competitors. For example why not designate 2007 as the year during which all cars need papers sorted. It is 2007 tomorrow and I cannot see how people wanting to send cars to Australia for example would do so without the papers sorted.

Finally - why exactly is the MSA presiding over a process that will cost most people about £350 per car to provide them papers that tell them less about the car than exisiting FIA papers and dont even comment about whether it was built in 1956 or 2006. Surely that cannot be right?

[Farbrooke]

I thought most of Barry's Belgium races took place within NEAFT events - if having an HTP is a requirement then Maters Top Hat fields may be a bit slim as well

[terence]

I think you will find that you do need these papers for Barrys European Races,the cost by the way is £400 per car.To be fair to the MSA we have had plenty of time to obtain the HTP,but at the same time ,I do not recall ever seeing any sort of reminder published at all.Surely it would of been quite easy for them to send out a reminder to all of the owners of the cars.I must admit to not being an avid reader of Motorsports Now, I find the back pages quite boring,but maybe I missed it in there somewhere.I wonder how many cars have yet to be seen, money for old rope it would seem!

[JRTM]

i think the cost issue is important simply because it is not set exactly. £250 to the MSA and then a variable and somewhat unpredicatable cost for inspection - which of course frequently does not involve actual physical inspection of the car. My point is that for cars already posessing so-called kosher FIA papers the process will simply require transfer of some - but not all - of the data on a new form. How can that cost £350 or £400 or whatever it ends up being? Maybe if the car didnt have forms or if it required physical inspection this might be justified but other than that I am impressed by Jeremy Hall's estimate of the figures for the MSA.

WHAT OTHER INCOME STREAM DO THEY HAVE THAT IS THIS PROFITABLE THIS YEAR?

Happy New Year

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by Farbrooke

If having an HTP is a requirement then Maters Top Hat fields may be a bit slim as well

I think that you are wrong - there are loads of Top Hat/Cloth Cap cars which conform, their were only hot rods running in the series because they could and there was increasingly fewer places for them to run - I have to say I welcome this as racing against oversized Morgans on Yoki's etc.. isnt really that historic!

Here is what I doint understand - if your car has papers and is regularily racing why does it need to be inspected? Marcus came round last Spring to inspect and obviously both cars where in there winter rebuild so he couldnt take photos etc but if they are the same as the old papers why not lift them off those? If I was going to cheat I would only do it after an inspection anyway! This would cut down the waiting list dramatically as only new cars would need to be inspected..

[terence]

Simon," If I was going to cheat-----". Thats exactly the current problem,so many owners have already taken this route,which hopefully the new papers will eradicate if only for a short while.I think much deserved thanks should goe to Jeremy for his time and patience.There is a short article by John Hughes ,FIA, on this very subject,he basically underlines what Jeremy has already stated in as much as the amain is to get the cars racing with the period mods and to get rid of the silhouette cars,we all know there are plenty of those about!Like Simon I do not understand why the cost is as high as it is,after all ,what do the MSA do for the charge. One comment that John Hughes does make in the article[Motor Sport]Feb :is that the FIA has "to find innovative ways of financing "these new papers.SORRY ABOUT THE DOUBLING UP I DID TRY TO EDIT THE FIRST POST BUT!