Time to ban diesels in Super 2000?

[duke_toaster]

http://www.crash.net/news_view~cid~88~id~153692.htm

There's so many rule breaks in the WTCC I can barely keep track of them (13:1 compression ratios for SEAT I think, something about someone getting flat floors not forgetting the bloody turbodiesels), some of which aren't in the BTCC (and SEAT are still leading the BTCC driver's championship without rule breaks running the petrol car).

As there can be turbocharger pressure exploits and other balancing issues, should diesels be allowed in Super 2000?

[Bramzel]

I voted Allow them as they are, but i have to revoke that one and move it to 'see how good they really are'.

It's only been 2 races, and they're not dominating. All it has done is bringing the Seats back to the top of the field, making the battle even better. Whats wrong with that?

I'm strongly against banning Diesels, variation in technique is just as interesting as variation in brands or models.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Bramzel

I voted Allow them as they are, but i have to revoke that one and move it to 'see how good they really are'.

It's only been 2 races, and they're not dominating. All it has done is bringing the Seats back to the top of the field, making the battle even better. Whats wrong with that?

I'm strongly against banning Diesels, variation in technique is just as interesting as variation in brands or models.

I agree

[bella]

allow them as they are. the point of touring cars is to develop new technologies. the companies running petrol engines should either adapt, improve, or change to their own diesel cars.

[Koulle]

I say allow them, at least for now.

I like to see various technologies but I also like close racing which makes it a very complex problem.

I agree that the amount of rule breaks in WTCC is ridiculous, but the FIA are working on having more equal rules for 2009. The manufacturers need to stop pushing for rule breaks and just develop their cars.

For the future I say allow these different technologies but also some restrictions where appropriate (like standardised parts etc). Maybe the FIA should have more pre-season tests specifically to work on balancing the performance and getting the power to weight ratios as euqal as possible like they do with GT3 cars.

[davyboy]

The WTCC only exists because manufacturers like SEAT, BMW, Alfa and GM [Daewoo/Chevrolet] have chosen to dump some of their marketing dollars that direction. They now see that diesel is a concept they want to promote for its 'green-ness' and if WTCC regulations embrace that, they will continue to support it. If not, they'll take their dollars elsewhere.

On the plus side, there's quite a degree of competition on garage forecourts for the 'sport-diesel' market fought out amongst many manufacturers - SEAT, BMW and Alfa among them. If the WTCC moves completely diesel - a high probability - then its likely that many more manufacturers will join in. Peugeot, VW/Audi, Ford being candidates ? That can only be a good thing.

On the downside, in my opinion diesels should be confined to big-rigs and farmyards and have no place on a racetrack... but it would seem this perspective is viewed as more and more luddite every day.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Isnt it E85 only for 2009? As announced a few months back.

[Bramzel]

2008 will be a transition year where both fuels will be allowed, with 2009 being the first full E85 year.

[Koulle]

Is it E85 for sure then?

I knew that everyone has to use bio-fuel from 2009 but I didn't think anything specific was mentioned.

[racer69]

How about burying the current regulations and starting again, incorporating all this stuff into them.

All the changes and adjustments and rule breaks in the WTCC is seriously a joke.

Banning these diesel's and so on isn't really the best move in my opinion, so long as the current LMP1 situation doesn't arrive (plus diesel's sound awful, it's bad enough we have to put up with FWD )

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by racer69

How about burying the current regulations and starting again, incorporating all this stuff into them.

All the changes and adjustments and rule breaks in the WTCC is seriously a joke.

Banning these diesel's and so on isn't really the best move in my opinion, so long as the current LMP1 situation doesn't arrive (plus diesel's sound awful, it's bad enough we have to put up with FWD )

Agree, a Front Wheel Drive, Diesel-powered Hatchback badged as a SEAT. I mean, you cant get much further away from the term "racing" then that?

If you had told the world in the 80s thats how a world championship would have been run in 20 years time, you'd be put in the looney bin!

[racer69]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

If you had told the world in the 80s thats how a world championship would have been run in 20 years time, you'd be put in the looney bin!

Too right, 20 years ago the WTCC consisted of 500hp rockets, driving from the proper end, and if your car wasn't competitive, it was up to you to work harder, not lobby the FIA for a concession!

[Robert Ryan]

The noise and environmental lobby have an awful lot to answer for. They're sapping all the fun and excitement out of life

The sound of "ground breaking" Diesels..pathetic. What next Toyota Prius/GM Volt?

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by racer69

Too right, 20 years ago the WTCC consisted of 500hp rockets, driving from the proper end, and if your car wasn't competitive, it was up to you to work harder, not lobby the FIA for a concession!

Wasn't it more like, if your car wasn't competitive, cheat. Or claim someone else was cheating and get them excluded.

[davyboy]

The noise and environmental lobby have an awful lot to answer for. They're sapping all the fun and excitement out of life !

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by davyboy

The noise and environmental lobby have an awful lot to answer for. They're sapping all the fun and excitement out of life !

i completely agree, finally someone speaks some bloody sense around here, the diesel audi R10 and pug 908's are incredibly dull and boring to watch, silent and its the same for all diesel race car's.

motorsport is a spectactle, not a profession of silent silly wannabee "green" car's, there are solaw powered car race's in australia for that.

[werner]

Yes the WTCC in the 80s was a great succes. So large that they didn't organize a 2nd year, just to remember the first one better...

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by werner

Yes the WTCC in the 80s was a great succes. So large that they didn't organize a 2nd year, just to remember the first one better...

Thats the one way of seeing it, I suppose... The true story tho is that Bernie once again had a finger in the game and decided to kill the serie by introdusing the Procar regs with 3.5 litre F1 engines and carbon monocoque chassies with closed bodywork (sounds familiar to anyone?) and only the Brabham Alfa 164 was ever made for those regs, and that was that, no more WTCC.

[duke_toaster]

Meh, almost all the base cars are FWD so it makes sense to have FWD racing versions. I'd allow 4WD in S2000 with even more of a weight penalty.

[werner]

doublepost

[davyboy]

Why penalize/equalize at all. Back in the 1970s and 1980s fast cars won and slow cars didn't. If you wanted to win, you didn't take a Morris Marina out saloon car racing ! If manufacturers were serious enough, they'd build homologation specials... and the rest of us motor-racing fans would benefit from some delicious road machinery.

Maybe the whole thing needs a rethink. I want to see the top class touring car racing fought out amongst exciting cars like Audi RS4s, Holden Monaros, BMW M3s etc... and the lower classes fought out among Golf GTis, Civic Type Rs etc... Not sure the the on-track performances of the diesel SEAT Leon or the BMW 320si would make anyone in the market for a quick saloon lean towards buying them over some of their more exotic stablemates in SEAT and BMW showrooms.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Why penalize/equalize at all. Back in the 1970s and 1980s fast cars won and slow cars didn't. If you wanted to win, you didn't take a Morris Marina out saloon car racing ! If manufacturers were serious enough, they'd build homologation specials... and the rest of us motor-racing fans would benefit from some delicious road machinery.

Why have equalization?

No equalization = boring racing = no-one wants to watch it on TV/go to the track = no-one wants to sponsor cars as no-one will see their ads = no cars = no racing.

Maybe the whole thing needs a rethink. I want to see the top class touring car racing fought out amongst exciting cars like Audi RS4s, Holden Monaros, BMW M3s etc... and the lower classes fought out among Golf GTis, Civic Type Rs etc... Not sure the the on-track performances of the diesel SEAT Leon or the BMW 320si would make anyone in the market for a quick saloon lean towards buying them over some of their more exotic stablemates in SEAT and BMW showrooms.

The whole thing doesn't need a rethink. Touring car racing is about selling cars. Halo effect won't do it as much as F1 will. Note the newspaper and billboard ads of the Vectra - the road version next to the S2000 car. Would that be possible with a Monaro? No. You can't flog a product that the consumer doesn't want. Most people don't buy the M3s and the cars you want to flog - the Civic, Astra etc. are the top selling cars. Both of which have S2000 versions.

Keep S2000 how it is. It's working.

And RWD isn't the proper end, 4WD is. And we don't want silhouettes, do we.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Why have equalization?

No equalization = boring racing = no-one wants to watch it on TV/go to the track = no-one wants to sponsor cars as no-one will see their ads = no cars = no racing.

This is what racing without equalization and rwd looks like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY5zdnGvT0c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDAK4jBKmow

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

The whole thing doesn't need a rethink. Touring car racing is about selling cars. Halo effect won't do it as much as F1 will. Note the newspaper and billboard ads of the Vectra - the road version next to the S2000 car. Would that be possible with a Monaro? No. You can't flog a product that the consumer doesn't want. Most people don't buy the M3s and the cars you want to flog - the Civic, Astra etc. are the top selling cars. Both of which have S2000 versions.

Keep S2000 how it is. It's working.

And RWD isn't the proper end, 4WD is. And we don't want silhouettes, do we.

I think even the man in the street knows that Giovanardi's Vectra bears about as much relationship to his own Vectra as it does to a Monaro. Winning on Sunday sells cars on Monday, but not necessarily that model.

[Fechna]

Maybe you should take a look at the not- equalized faboulous ETCC of thelate seventees: Nearly all races through a half decade were won by only one brand: BMW.

And: Take a look at the (really faboulous) ETCC from the eightees:

Don´t you ever thought about, that maybe there were equalization too? How is it possible, that a aerodynamical joke (I personally love the car) like a Volvo
240 could win the championship? There were very detailled equalization rules for every motor size. The faboulous DTM of 1986- 1992 made it even more equal, setting all cars from Division 1 to 3 into a compareable competition.

And since the times of the Jaguar in ETCC, there was cheating and illegal parts in nearly all cars, at least of the biggest division 3. So much green table decisions, so much rumours...

If you are saying, the nowadays WTCC has to much streched rules, and "look to the glory days" I say:
Maybe there has never been clearer regulations and legal behaviour by the manufacturers than now.
Just some quotes about ETCC/WTCC from the eightees from the Webpage of Frank de Jong:


1983:

The battle with BMW was not only on tarmac, but at the green table as well; BMW and Jaguar issued protests, the BMW was accused of beeing too wide, the Jaguar's wheel arches were too wide at the inside. The protests were rejected, in case of the Jaguar a VIP version was discovered in the homologation papers. TWR-Rover was later accused of the same trick. This time, the cars were versions for the tropics. TWR = Third World Racing?

1984:

Since Jaguar even managed to homologate a higher valve lift, the battle on the green table did not take place at all. Perhaps wise, since most other competitors were probably not 100% correct as well.

1985:

1985 was a year, which mirrored the '83 season n a way, with its silly discussions about what's legal - and what's not. This time however, it was not Walkinshaw who was suspected of illegal tricks, it was Volvo who happened to homologate the 240 turbo in an evolution version - which a rear spoiler, big turbo, intercooler and water injection. After production of the 500 cars and subsquent homologation (with close inspection of 23 cars), the other 477 cars were robbed of their competition equipment and sold as standard 240 turbo roadcars. Not illegal by any means, but it left a bad taste in the mouth of their competitors. The FISA reacted in July, after trying to buy an Evolution car in a few European countries (which failed): Volvo had to release the names of the 500 owners of the evolution cars. Volvo didn't react, so the "evolution" homologation would end on September 1, 1985. Later (after the factory holiday!) Volvo could manage to reveal a few evolution cars in Sweden, so the ban was lifted.

1987:

And even the works teams had their trouble. The season's start at Monza was a disaster. The works Ford Sierra's were disqualified, since they changed the Weber electronics for a Bosch motronic. They were alowed however to use the "modified" Bosch electronics for the second race. The main change was the Ford sticker,which left the Bosch sign invisible.

All works BMW M3's were disqualified at Monza, first because of illegal bootlids, later because of the roofs being made from surprisingle thin metal. After that, in Bathurst the Ford Sierra's were disqualified for illegal modifications on the rear wheel arches. In the end, BMW's Ravaglia had another green table championship; Ford's #7 car won the team prize.

Don´t talk about the times, if you don´t know what you are talking about!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Fechna

If you are saying, the nowadays WTCC has to much streched rules, and "look to the glory days" I say:
Maybe there has never been clearer regulations and legal behaviour by the manufacturers than now.

I don't think people are saying that the participants are behaving illegally, rather that the rules are being altered to ensure they become/remain competitive and remain part of the championship circus. I don't remember the rule makers adjusting Group A regs to make the Toyota Supra as performant as the RS500 or M3 back in the late 1980s... Toyota were left to sink or swim based on how competitive their car was.

There's no question that the amount of rule bending and disqualification back in the 1980s was ridiculous. Its hard to see how manufacturers would condone or tolerate that today.

Originally Posted by Fechna

Don´t talk about the times, if you don´t know what you are talking about!

I think everyone's entitled to express an opinion be it right or wrong.