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18 Aug 2017, 23:03 (Ref:3760285) | #2976 | ||
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18 Aug 2017, 23:42 (Ref:3760290) | #2977 | |||
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I wonder what they will run for a livery on the Oreca at Petit? Will they have Acura sponsorship? |
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19 Aug 2017, 03:02 (Ref:3760313) | #2978 | ||
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Like the Cadillac and Nissan, it's 95% the original car, but I like the result in all cases. That front "wing"? remembers me the one used on the Porsche 962 on mid 80s. the only thing I don't like are the new rims
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19 Aug 2017, 05:34 (Ref:3760323) | #2979 | |
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Except unlike the Porsche, this wing doesn't look ready to fly off and kill someone.
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19 Aug 2017, 12:49 (Ref:3760379) | #2980 | ||
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Sorry, but I still hate the fins. They seem to me a huge overreaction to a couple of incidents and are dog ugly. I don't remember the Group C days being littered with airborne crashes.
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19 Aug 2017, 13:04 (Ref:3760382) | #2981 | ||
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In 2008 alone - Ben Devlin - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjddG3OC03I Jamie Campbell-Walter - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnLBf6N3xPA Stephane Ortelli - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNkySVNNpog Dindo Capello - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biUwr2g7txA Marc Gene - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KfdRTQEiyw Hideki Noda - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkjOv2HJeZM RML - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyXYnGv6y1U (Can't remember who was driving that one, sorry) This is just off the top of my head. There may be more. But all of that happened within 2-3 months. This was the point where fins, holes and thinner cars started being looked at. |
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19 Aug 2017, 16:37 (Ref:3760402) | #2982 | ||
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And how many of those accidents were caused by either hitting something or a mechanical failure? Most of them. But also, how many of them happened in a corner or near one? Almost all of them.
The fin and fender holes and narrower cars (I especially hate the latter point) aren't cure alls, either. But what else did you expect the ACO to do? DPs rarely flipped because they were too slow in corners to do so. But that was because they lacked aero, and ran on rock hard spec tires. What would you rather have? Fins and holes that do at least work a lot of the time, or crap spec tires and aero limits? |
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19 Aug 2017, 16:44 (Ref:3760403) | #2983 | |
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It doesn't matter why the car was sideways, whether it be mechanical failure or hitting something, or if a corner was near it. That part really doesn't matter - it's about how the car acts once it is sideways.
Remember that Daytona Prototypes did suffer from it too, once they added more power and aero. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTq4qFelmvc Fins and holes are necessary when you have these big aero dependant cars. And honestly, they really aren't that bad. |
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19 Aug 2017, 17:00 (Ref:3760405) | #2984 | |
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They didn't stop Anthony Davidson from flipping. There's other solutions they could have done but they did a stop-gap one in the name of 'safety'. Just like the stupid halo. It's a rush to appear they did something when in actuality it's hardly worth it because it doesn't do that big of a difference in incidents where cars get airborne. Imo, Nascar's roof flaps do a better job at keeping a car planted.
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19 Aug 2017, 17:11 (Ref:3760407) | #2985 | ||
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I also like the NASCAR solution and think it should be incorporated to the engine covers of LMPs, but there is no doubt the current solutions have helped the situation, even if they have not cured it. |
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19 Aug 2017, 18:06 (Ref:3760419) | #2986 | |
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I think Indycar is/was trying to integrate those sort of flaps on the diffuser.
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19 Aug 2017, 18:47 (Ref:3760424) | #2987 | ||
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Other than blow overs, why weren't LMP900/675s flipping when they got sideways? Probably the same reason why GTPs/Group Cs weren't and why DPs didn't until they were sped up. The cars cornered too slow.
We have to remember that the 2004 ACO regs increased the volume of the front and rear diffusers, because of that 1000mm wide/50mm tall lip on the front diffuser and the rear diffuser especially had a much bigger exit (200mm vs 150mm on LMP 900s and on the current LMP1 factory cars). The cars generated so much more downforce from the underbody than the earlier cars did. Also, tire technology got much better, which is why even LMP900s were able to go faster than Group C and IMSA GTP cars. Are there better solutions to prevent flips? Probably, but they'd probably be more expensive than the fin (not a big deal), fender holes (valid concept, but why do that when the previous 20 years the ACO mandated that you couldn't at least start the race with big holes in the fenders for aero reasons?), or the narrower cars (probably the dumbest thing of all--surface area of the floor wouldn't matter if the cars stayed on the ground in the first place). Why not take advantage of the chamfered floor and just run an air dam a certain distance inboard of the outer edge of the car? Or a crescent profile on the fin when viewed from the front to funnel air onto the engine cover? Probably a better idea, or find some way of creating a low pressure area under the car when it's sideways (the chamfered floor, but I don't think it's that efficient), like finding a way to vent air more effectively when the car's sideways (again, the fender holes IMO are of questionable efficiency when the car's sideways). Unfortunately, the aero genie, like so many genies in racing, are out of the bottle and trying to take downforce of these cars to make them less aero sensitive/prone to certain behaviors will be seen as going backwards. Same thing with trying to reduce tire grip (unless we want these cars to triple or quadruple stint in sprint races, which would equal 5-6 stints at LM). |
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19 Aug 2017, 18:58 (Ref:3760426) | #2988 | |
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19 Aug 2017, 19:06 (Ref:3760427) | #2989 | ||
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One incident does not prove an entire concept is pointless. Considerably when in the big picture it's a piece of evidence about how effective the peices actually are.
Anthony Davison's flip was the result of the aerodynamics being compromised from an impact - as has every LMP flip that has occurred since the fins and fender holes were implemented. There is no way to prevent flips from occurring when the aerodynamics are compromised. Even the flaps in NASCAR/IndyCar won't help if the aero is broken in just the wrong way. IndyCar has still had a couple of flips during wrecks since adding the flaps. The flaps work in NASCAR far better because it's so much harder to break the aero in a way that the falps can't manage due in no small part to the fact that NASCAR is considerably less aero dependent. The fins in LMP are MORE than sufficiently effective. |
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19 Aug 2017, 19:25 (Ref:3760431) | #2990 | ||
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Images from an absolutely brilliant Racecar Engineering page here: http://www.racecar-engineering.com/cars/rebellion-r1/ Looking at the exhaust exits and the bulging around that area, I think the exhaust and rear bodywork will change. |
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19 Aug 2017, 19:28 (Ref:3760432) | #2991 | ||
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19 Aug 2017, 19:33 (Ref:3760433) | #2992 | |
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F1 doesn't use fins for safety issues, as those cars rarely have issues like blowing over because the surface area of the floor is quite small. The large surface area of the LMP floor is one of the reasons they are more prone to blowing over (and why thinner cars are less likely too).
F1 cars use the fin to stabilise airflow to the rear wing and helps stablise the car. The downside is they are vulnerable to cross winds. F1 is getting rid of them purely on visuals, which is what has driven a lot of the aero changes in F1 recently. |
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19 Aug 2017, 21:16 (Ref:3760449) | #2993 | |
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19 Aug 2017, 21:39 (Ref:3760453) | #2994 | ||
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19 Aug 2017, 21:48 (Ref:3760455) | #2995 | |
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F1 cars have about half the flat floor area of an LMP. Everything around the nose is discounted because it's thin (and not flat) which allows air to flow around it. Its like having mega massive holes. Yes the cars do need a major redesign if they're going to address that, and there is more they can do, but the fins and holes do have a positive effect and comparing it to a single seater (no matter how fast it is) is like comparing apples and tennis rackets.
The fins create a high pressure zone above the car which helps force it down when going sideways. F1 doesn't have this because there is no significant lift produced when the car is moving sideways. There is also very little place for F1 cars to trap air, where as wheel arches are traditionally high pressure areas that produce lift. The reason it's a safety feature on a slower car is simply because the profile and shapes of LMPs are more prone to it than single seater are. Single seaters can blow over (Indycar), but F1 cars aren't doing 230mph much so don't need safety features to deal with a situation that won't occur under normal parameters. I think the only time F1 cars get that sort of speed is Mexico, where the air is thinner and would produce less lift anyway. |
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19 Aug 2017, 21:49 (Ref:3760456) | #2996 | ||||||
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That said, I DID note that all of the major flips since the fin was introduced involved compromised aerodynamics - and that includes the 2014 Audi incident. The majority of the flips that raised concerns before the fins did not involve compromised aero. The only exceptions to the involvement compromised aerodynamics in flips with the fins were matters where the flip wasn't induced by aerodynamics at all - such as the Ligier LMP2 last month at CTMP. Quote:
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The evidence is that they have produced a great reduction in the number of flips there have been. This is only one example, of course, but it is quite relevant. Prior to the fins, incidents like this caused flips with unnerving frequency, but this is one of many cases since the fins were implemented where the cars stayed firmly planted to the ground: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmuVZrR53v0 |
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19 Aug 2017, 22:05 (Ref:3760458) | #2997 | |
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What is this bizarro world wherein I agree with Fox?
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19 Aug 2017, 22:23 (Ref:3760462) | #2998 | ||
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Great discussion, but this isn't DPI talk is it?
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19 Aug 2017, 23:02 (Ref:3760468) | #2999 | ||
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Well, I think it's at least fair to say that it's at least RELEVANT - DPis are using the same safety components we're debating the merits of, after all.
Last edited by FormulaFox; 19 Aug 2017 at 23:19. |
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19 Aug 2017, 23:33 (Ref:3760476) | #3000 | ||
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