|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
9 Jan 2018, 12:01 (Ref:3791515) | #51 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,864
|
Quote:
In the big picture, the only benefit GTE has is that it's not quite as pricey as GT3. All GTE has to offer is an indication of what areas the SRO/FIA should put some limits on development in order to reign in GT3 costs. Aerodynamically the only difference between GT3 and GTE is the front splitter and rear wing. ESPECIALLY the rear wing. The GTE/GT3 convergence is less of a convergence and more of a "figure out where to put some cost saving restrictions on GT3 and convince the ACO to shut down GTE." And the realization is probably what caused talks to break down in the last effort. But as things have made it all the more clear that GT3 has a brighter future than GTE, some egos had to be set aside for the future. But they certainly don't need to rush it, and clearly aren't. If we hear any confirmation of convergence before 2020, unless it's merely as an experiment by IMSA, I'll be stunned. |
|||
|
9 Jan 2018, 14:45 (Ref:3791552) | #52 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,461
|
Quote:
|
||
|
9 Jan 2018, 20:54 (Ref:3791616) | #53 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,864
|
|||
|
9 Jan 2018, 21:05 (Ref:3791618) | #54 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,921
|
Quote:
At least it is what I know until now, so could you give me more details of why GT3 is more expensive than GTE? |
|||
|
9 Jan 2018, 22:47 (Ref:3791626) | #55 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,864
|
Quote:
Quick aside, that "relative" portion is important - I am not arguing, and nor should anyone with a brain, that anything about this stuff is cheap by the basic definition. We're talking cheap relative to each other. The other reason GT3 has gotten so maddeningly expensive is because they have next to no restrictions regarding development of aerodynamics. Compare for example, the Corvette C7.R GTE: To the Corvette C7 GT3-R GT3 car: Right away you should be able to see how much crazier the rear wing is on the GT3. If you look more you'll notice a lot more crazy details in the aero around the wheel arches, and while those photos don't illustrate it very clearly the front splitter is a lot more developed on the GT3 version(I'd post photos to show that, but this post is bloated enough, so look it up yourself). In the same vein, GT3 is far looser about suspension development than GTE. So, to summarize, GT3 can do more with the engine, aero, and suspension than GTE can. This is why many cars are more expensive than GTE cars can tend to be. This is not universal, of course - From what I've heard the Porsche GT3 is a fair bit cheaper than their GTE, and despite the craziness the above exampled Corvette apparently costs about the same as what Labre pays for theirs. But then you have the Ferrari, the GT3 version of which evidently costs more than the LMP2 chassis AND engine cost cap(and bear in mind that not all LMP2s are actually sold at the capped price), far more than teams get their GTE models for. The McLarens are up there in price as well, but they don't have a GTE car to compare to, and they're a company I imagine would build a GTE with a sky-high pricetag as well. But by and large, GT3 cars are a fair bit pricier than GTE due to a far more open development allowance. The entire concept of the class was built around balancing cars of vastly different design, so it's frankly no surprise it's gone to such levels. Performance-wise, the FIA GT3 BoP, used by Pirelli World Challenge, has been ~2 seconds slower than GTE at most US tracks. Both classes are restricted down from their full potential, but left unleashed most believe that GT3 cars would decimate the majority of GTE cars(the Ford GT is one of the few believed to be able to beat GT3 cars if all ran unrestricted). This is why not that long ago, a "Super GT3" idea was floated(during a rumored split from Class One regs by Super GT that ended up being completely baseless), and why the idea continues to be talked about by some engineers who like the idea of an enhanced version of an existing class. Last edited by FormulaFox; 9 Jan 2018 at 22:55. |
|||
|
10 Jan 2018, 00:42 (Ref:3791638) | #56 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,921
|
Quote:
|
||
|
10 Jan 2018, 02:07 (Ref:3791646) | #57 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,864
|
Quote:
There's no need for it unless there's a complete collapse of either LMP(and by complete I mean both P1 AND P2), or Class One. |
|||
|
10 Jan 2018, 08:05 (Ref:3791673) | #58 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,308
|
GTE doesn't require using the same engine as the street car and multiple cars in the class do not.
Quote:
GT3 cars being faster than GTE unrestricted might have been the case under the 2015 regulations but isn't really under the 2017 regulations that have given GTE cars similarly large aero devices. Most of the time GTE runs really restrictive BoP itself. Some GT3s might have bigger engines but they aren't engineered to run at significantly higher outputs regardless. The 488 GT3's purchase price is really high but that doesn't account for what it includes. The GT3 and GTE only have around $60,000 worth different parts. The GTE almost certainly costs more per engine hour of the two though, and one of the reasons it's so expensive for a GT3 probably is that it's 90% by cost a GTE car and saving on development rather than taking advantage of GT3's looser rules to reduce costs for the customer. |
||
|
10 Jan 2018, 12:27 (Ref:3791711) | #59 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,515
|
Of the cars in GTE, there are what 3 GT3 cars? Not a lot to compare what the GT3 vs GTE costs are. And one is a GTE car with a parts kit to make it GT3, and if I recall about 125k to move up. But far easier to get a GT3 and build your GTE as Risi did with the sadly quickly wrecked car at LM. Corvette is two very different builders so comparing costs, or design, is a fool's errand. And Posrche, well the engine isn't even in the same spot so no point in comparing there. But of those three I've seen numbers tossed around to indicate the GTEs are more expensive and harder to get. And well a Corvette GTE, better luck breeding unicorns there.
But maybe those with numbers can actually share, it doesn't seem to me the higher expense and speed of GT3 is really reflected. Especially when it is often an UNRESTRICTED GT3 compared to a rules restrained GTE. Compare them at max ability or by their own rules but don't pick and chose. |
|
|
10 Jan 2018, 12:50 (Ref:3791716) | #60 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 10,985
|
The Ferrari 488 GTE comes out cheaper if you buy the GT3 version and the GTE conversion kit from Ferrari, rather than buying the GTE version straight from them.
It sounds barmy, but I assume there's a good reason for it. |
|
|
10 Jan 2018, 12:57 (Ref:3791718) | #61 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,833
|
Biggest problem is that the rules between GTE and GT3 in detail are divergent enough that the only car that I know of that can be converted directly from one spec to another is the 488. And it's reportedly actually cheaper to buy the GT3 and the GTE conversion kit than the ready built GTE car.
Also, GTE is biased (supposedly) towards factory teams. GT3 is supposed to be customer based. However, several times, especially on the GT3 side, the line does get blurred due to the mount of support that the car makers throw toward favored teams. What I'm actually interested in is how much the average GTE and average GT3 car cost, and how much per mile/kilometer they cost to operate and run. And how much in terms of personnel on the team does it take to run a car as well. But at the end of the day, GT3 has proven to be a profit center (thus far) for car makers who run customer based programs. GTE hasn't been that way since the GT2 days. As long as there's willing customers willing to pay what the market will bear and setting that statute, GT3 will be OK as a formula. As far as individual series go, though, it goes back to supply and demand. |
||
|
10 Jan 2018, 13:19 (Ref:3791723) | #62 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,515
|
It sounded like that was Risi's thoughts behind getting the car that way. Plus as they said, you have all the bits to make it a GT3 car again depending on the investor's needs/desires. But then it is a racing Ferrari and pedigree is king. Running LM, Daytona, Sebring, Spa and other big events has to add to the value.
|
|
|
10 Jan 2018, 14:30 (Ref:3791734) | #63 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,955
|
This is a neat picture of the 2 Risi Ferrari's right next to each other. One is GTLM. The other is GT3. They look identical.
http://www.dailysportscar.com/wp-con...daytona-04.jpg |
|
|
10 Jan 2018, 18:40 (Ref:3791788) | #64 | |||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 15,860
|
Quote:
As far as other models that are similar between GTE and GT3, I remember seeing the Viper GTE next to the GT3 in Riley's paddock area a few years ago with bodywork removed, and there was a ton of difference between the two - even for my untrained eye. We could have added the BMW M6 last year as well to this comparison, but i don't know how similar those models were. |
|||
|
10 Jan 2018, 19:08 (Ref:3791799) | #65 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,833
|
That was also a problem in the Grand Am days and early combined ALMS/GA/WTSC days. GT3 derived cars had to be built to a different spec than FIA/SRO specs, mostly roll cage.
I'd think that a similar platform where it takes only minor changes between the specs would be ideal. "Problem" there, is wouldn't GT3/GTE unification make sense then? |
||
|
10 Jan 2018, 19:28 (Ref:3791803) | #66 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,515
|
Quote:
|
||
|
10 Jan 2018, 19:40 (Ref:3791808) | #67 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,515
|
|||
|
10 Jan 2018, 19:41 (Ref:3791809) | #68 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 3,000
|
I think the solution is simple honestly, but not sure it would ever been taken up..
1- drop GTE cars, just run GT3. In WEC GT3 could run as full factory efforts. In Blancpain for example only as semi factory. 2- cost cap GT3 cars... the cost of the car to purchase as the limiting factor. Then in WEC you bring a factory budget and all factory guns, the car is the affordable bit, the program cost depends on the other variables.. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
|
|
10 Jan 2018, 20:43 (Ref:3791827) | #69 | ||||||||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,864
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||||||
|
10 Jan 2018, 20:55 (Ref:3791828) | #70 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,515
|
But you haven't offered anything beyond you think. What are the "more developed" bits on each GT3 car? Is there a bend in the Callaway Vette wing tips for a GT3 specific rule or NOT bent based on GTE rules? And what specific benefit does it provide?
You've made claims with ZERO evidence to back them up. Claims without evidence is hot air and conjecture not fact. |
|
|
10 Jan 2018, 22:07 (Ref:3791849) | #71 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,052
|
Quote:
Can't think of another reason otherwise. |
|||
|
10 Jan 2018, 22:10 (Ref:3791851) | #72 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,052
|
Pardon my ignorance here (I'm not technically minded, or that bothered about the technical rules, so I've never had the inclination to learn about them), but does that mean one could buy any GT3 car and 'simply' convert it to GTE?
Say, if you bought a GT3 Lambo, could it be converted the GTE spec? |
||
|
10 Jan 2018, 22:22 (Ref:3791854) | #73 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,515
|
Quote:
|
||
|
10 Jan 2018, 22:54 (Ref:3791861) | #74 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,515
|
Quote:
|
||
|
10 Jan 2018, 23:55 (Ref:3791865) | #75 | |||||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,308
|
Quote:
Quote:
http://www.deutschmandesign.com/en/car/Callaway_GT3-R No, the Viper and 488 legitimately use almost entirely the same bodywork except for some bolt on devices and venting differences. Not anymore. That's why Porsche had to move the engine. http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/f...-gte-gt3-cars/ Quote:
Quote:
I think the GT3 Viper was basically running a stock engine? So the engine bay was quite a bit different even though they had pretty much the same chassis engineering. |
|||||
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
GTD/FIAGT3 Cars 2014 | pederb | Sportscar & GT Racing | 156 | 27 Aug 2014 17:01 |
Should Ferrari be worried tomorrow? | Mr V | Formula One | 27 | 18 May 2003 17:27 |
m8f (gtd) | Mark Morrison | Motorsport History | 5 | 9 May 2003 06:30 |
should toyota be worried??? | Mr V | Formula One | 36 | 10 Jan 2002 17:28 |
Should DC be worried?? | Mr V | Formula One | 10 | 8 Jan 2002 17:17 |