|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
23 Oct 2017, 19:36 (Ref:3775953) | #201 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,099
|
Quote:
You can find all kind of discussion about the difficulty in doing this (your point above) as well as how different series polices it to different levels. To do it to the letter of the rule would be a monumental nightmare. Especially in circuits (such as COTA) in which there are a number of places in which it can be a problem. So they (race official) give in and allow it within reason. Of course this leads to cries of inconsistency. Quote:
I generally believe that loose track limits at COTA is typically on how wide you can run on the 'outside' of a turn. Something like this... (Note: Those are cars running wide after T19. And it was typical behavior at COTA IMSA race in 2015) Richard |
|||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
23 Oct 2017, 20:50 (Ref:3775965) | #202 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,483
|
Lauda's version of what was agreed can be found here https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/132578/verstappen-decision-the-worst-ever--lauda
|
||
|
23 Oct 2017, 21:04 (Ref:3775967) | #203 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,099
|
Quote:
Richard |
||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
23 Oct 2017, 21:24 (Ref:3775969) | #204 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 7,175
|
Quote:
It was like they turned the track into a high-speed ski race. |
||
|
23 Oct 2017, 21:26 (Ref:3775971) | #205 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,060
|
Quote:
|
||
__________________
All the same, isn't there a grand oul stretch in the evenings... |
23 Oct 2017, 23:38 (Ref:3775997) | #206 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,892
|
I think you know that the problem there is the "within reason" part. There's a very large portion of the population that really, at some level, needs a more solid, tangible standard than that, and this applies to sports and games well beyond car or bike racing.
It's a practically endless can of worms if they have the ability to use the surface that is "out of bounds" essentially at will. And I didn't even touch in the other post on what this all does to driving standards. And deteriorating driving standards has a definite negative impact on safety, unquestionably, regardless of the track. The ability to get away with something at one track has ripples elsewhere, too. And yes, things like what was allowed at that IMSA race take away from my ability to take the series seriously as a venue for proper competition. Grass and gravel still seem like, by far, the best options. And, occasionally, someone will get a miraculous start, even when using the grass, like one fellow did at a DTM race at Mugello. There's plenty of NASCAR superspeedway races, and most every Cleveland GP from 1990-2007, to show that vast swathes of tarmac being available is hardly a guarantee of anything. |
||
__________________
The only certainty is that nothing is certain. |
24 Oct 2017, 01:56 (Ref:3776014) | #207 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,892
|
Had to rush off for a bite earlier.
Anyway, the other main thing that comes to my mind is, simply, punishments MUST be as consistent and unconditional as possible to actually work. There is practically no doubt in my mind that, to the drivers, what Max did, and what any number of others did, both on the inside and outside of corners, was fundamentally the same act. As was pointed out, you gain speed/time by going wide and being able to run faster that way. Plus, again, there's the "getting into DRS range" issue. The basic form of the rule doesn't say "leaving the track to overtake"; it says, "leaving te track to gain an advantage". Reduced lap times/increased speed, are bloody advantages. Okay, so, some examples of corner-cutting and overtakes facilitated by leaving the track. Ricciardo cut Turn 6 on Lap 4. Shouldn't Magnussen have gotten a penalty for hitting Wehrlein, passing him, and running off the track while doing so? And of course, if Ricciardo's move on Bottas at Turns 1-3 had worked, when he went off the outside of Turn 1, would he have been penalized for it? Sainz had to run off the track to go through Turn 19 fast enough on Lap 34 to make his move on Perez. Sainz cut Turn 6 on Lap 45. Sainz cut Turn 14 on Lap 49. Max cut Turn 8 on Lap 56. First and foremost, is there actually a standard in practice? Second, if so, what IS that standard? Last edited by Purist; 24 Oct 2017 at 02:02. |
||
__________________
The only certainty is that nothing is certain. |
24 Oct 2017, 08:28 (Ref:3776047) | #208 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 913
|
It's only the newer, ultra safe circuits where track limits are a real issue.
Maybe they could have the absolute limit defined with 600mm high polystyrene blocks.......or something similar. If you brush a block without damaging it then fine, if you smash one or more to pieces then you're out......ie: The "safe" version of a real shunt. Can't see how anyone could argue with the evidence then. |
||
|
24 Oct 2017, 10:23 (Ref:3776071) | #209 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,971
|
I've come late to this thread, but followed most of it. All of this aggro over track limits is just a natural consequence of making a race track by painting it onto a car park. So the solution is to go back to real tracks with a real edge defining them.
Without trying to second guess the detail at this stage, by objective would be a zero tolerance of deviating from the track. The method of defining the track should be something that ideally creates a time penalty, but probably not car damage and definitely not a safety issue. Although I think the exact solution should be a subject to a lot of consideration, I feel favourably disposed towards the bolt-down sausage kerbs that someone proposed a few pages back. They could be removed for bike races. They could be made available in different heights to suit the circumstances. Of course they have occasionally be used in the past and drivers usually complain about them and get them removed after the first day of practice because driving over them damages the car. ("Then don't drive over them!!!") The situation has deteriorated so much that you can't recover the situation by small measures. It would require a new way of thinking about track limits (and resultant track alterations) for a new season. There would be all sorts of issues at the first one or two races, and then the drivers would start driving on the track all the time and everything would be well. |
||
__________________
The older I get, the faster I was. |
24 Oct 2017, 10:45 (Ref:3776078) | #210 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,126
|
Quote:
Two rules in play, the rule about leaving the circuit, and the rule about leaving the circuit and gaining an advantage which you have to give back. It happen often enough - someone goes off the circuit and overtakes, then have to give the place back. |
|||
__________________
Locost #54 Boldly Leaping where no car has gone before. And then being T-boned. Damn. Survivor of the 2008 2CV 24h!! 2 engines, one accident, 76mph and rain. |
24 Oct 2017, 11:40 (Ref:3776086) | #211 | |||
Race Official
1% Club
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 47,174
|
Quote:
|
|||
__________________
Go woke, Go broke… Here’s hoping a random universe works out in your favour… The meaning of life… ENJOYING THE PASSAGE OF TIME! #CANCERSUCKS |
24 Oct 2017, 11:44 (Ref:3776088) | #212 | ||
Race Official
1% Club
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 47,174
|
Move the fence to the edge of the track... they won’t do it twice...
|
||
__________________
Go woke, Go broke… Here’s hoping a random universe works out in your favour… The meaning of life… ENJOYING THE PASSAGE OF TIME! #CANCERSUCKS |
24 Oct 2017, 12:05 (Ref:3776093) | #213 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,006
|
just put some real curb-stones on the side of the track instead of those rumble strips that don't do anything but "be coloured pretty"
back in the day where I wasn't an old fart, you tried a move like that, and you ended up taking out both cars, and everyone branded you the idiot. |
||
__________________
Heaven is a checkered flag. |
24 Oct 2017, 12:16 (Ref:3776096) | #214 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,703
|
Quote:
|
|||
__________________
Incognito: An Italian phrase meaning Nice Gearchange! |
24 Oct 2017, 12:26 (Ref:3776100) | #215 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 772
|
In the meaning what was said, yes. In terms of timing: complete difference. While in the cockpit you are still under immediate race stress, in the press zone afterwards you are not.
They should let it rest, regardless. |
||
|
24 Oct 2017, 12:34 (Ref:3776103) | #216 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,483
|
Quote:
However, it is a bit difficult to decipher quotes within quotes and understand exactly what Charlie was saying is the stance. I think they are saying that the enforcing of track limits is based on whether there is an agreement that advantage is gained.... 'During drivers’ briefings we always discuss it. Here you can take an advantage, and there’s an argument and Charlie [Whiting, FIA race director] would say ‘You don’t gain an advantage here’ and you can keep the power earlier and go wide,” he said. “It’s strange here because exit of turn nine you used to be not able to go wide, and now you can just go off track. Last corner you can go over the big kerb. “There is a really fine line. I think the FIA are doing a good job. But when it comes to new tracks, they can’t build all these run-off areas.' |
|||
__________________
"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me." |
24 Oct 2017, 13:00 (Ref:3776107) | #217 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,116
|
|||
__________________
Richard Murtha: You don't stop racing because you are too old, you get old when you stop racing! But its looking increasingly likely that I've stopped.....have to go back to rallying ;) |
24 Oct 2017, 13:10 (Ref:3776109) | #218 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,007
|
When I raced all those many years ago some of the circuits had track limits defined by straw bales, they tended to vary a bit between races!!!
|
||
|
24 Oct 2017, 13:19 (Ref:3776113) | #219 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,006
|
|||
__________________
Heaven is a checkered flag. |
24 Oct 2017, 14:02 (Ref:3776118) | #220 | |
Racer
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 279
|
I remember when the chicane at Thruxton was neatly lined with Armco - no track limit issues then! But when did it all change? Was it Dr Palmer? Or was it the advent of the mahoosive run-offs at FIA Grade 1 circuits? Either way, not only must a victim be found (for Ko-Ko!) but a solution too. Many modern cars have lane-departure warning systems. Without much work, the technology could be adapted - perhaps with a minor rule tweak to say that the centre-line of the car should not cross the white line that demarks the track limit. |
|
|
24 Oct 2017, 14:11 (Ref:3776120) | #221 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,099
|
Quote:
As much as I made fun of Lauda's rambling quotes (which might be misquotes, or selective quotes to be fair), I think Lauda was talking primarily about stewards not getting deeply involved on trying to resolve on track collisions, plus maybe some about the ability to run wide on exit. I still can't believe Lauda somehow thinks Charlie said you can now cut corners. Maybe that is what he actually thinks!? But... people tend to hear what they want in those types of meetings. Especially if the explanation is not... clear. At the end, they are probably asked if everyone understands. They all nod their head in agreement and walk away with slightly different versions in their head of what is and is not allowed. Its not until there is conflict that someone says "That is not what I was told!" Richard |
||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
24 Oct 2017, 14:19 (Ref:3776121) | #222 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,116
|
Quote:
The stewards have plenty of evidence, the drivers just have to accept that once they "cross the line" they may get caught......tho I accept that more consistency would be good. In club racing we get penalised for "exceeding track limits", not sure why the "best drivers in the world" should be any different. Wonder if there would have been such vociferous protests if the pass (and the penalty) had been a few laps earlier, rather than on the last lap? |
|||
__________________
Richard Murtha: You don't stop racing because you are too old, you get old when you stop racing! But its looking increasingly likely that I've stopped.....have to go back to rallying ;) |
24 Oct 2017, 14:21 (Ref:3776122) | #223 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 11,402
|
Max’s remarks post race shows that he is still only 20 years of age therefore in the heat of the moment I can cut him some slack ..
|
||
|
24 Oct 2017, 14:30 (Ref:3776127) | #224 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,948
|
a little late to the party but a couple of additional thoughts...
-like most, i am in favour of enforcing track limits although i am not a fan of requiring tracks to change their layouts to accommodate this...particularly given this new suggestion from Malaysia that Haas may sue the organizers. there needs to be a system that doesnt result in damage caused by the track itself. such is the litigious world we live in now. -F1 is a technology driven sport and between the multiple camera positions and number of staff in race control, most if not all infractions are no doubt recorded and penalties can be issued. in addition to that, there should be a sensor system in place at troublesome corners (provided and monitored by the FIA/FOM and perhaps regulated with something like the ECU). combined with track side telemetry, like the DRS activation system, any car going off track should experience a loss of power. for cars that are forced off track, a traditional review from race control can offer out a time penalty to the violator and place restored for the victim. but even then there is a subjective element and we wont always have the right call but such is sports. the point is that they start moving towards a more elegant and efficient system. -also i think respect should be given and credit is due towards the Stewards for coming to a decision so quickly. maybe its wasnt the right call (although i think it was), i really appreciated how quickly they made the call and that they got it done in time for the podium. in years seasons past, the main complaint would have been how we all had to read about the change in results the day after the event. -i also have no problem with Max's or Horner's comments. they have a right to be upset. again this is nothing new in sports and certainly not a case of 'bringing the sport into disrepute' imo. |
||
__________________
Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place |
24 Oct 2017, 15:29 (Ref:3776145) | #225 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,256
|
Quote:
They work extremely well. So much so that one of the UK's well-respected clerks who was racing at last weekend's Formula Ford Festival got pinged and had their evidential photo put on Facebook by that race's C-o-C so we could all have a chuckle |
||
__________________
Walk a mile in someone else's shoes. When they realise you have, you'll be a mile away and you'll have their shoes. |
Tags |
cota, hartley, red bull, str, usgp |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Round 1: 2015 Australian Grand Prix (Grand Prix Weekend Thread) | FAS33 | Formula One | 160 | 23 Mar 2015 17:53 |
Grand Prix Manager : French Grand Prix results | Wrex | Formula One | 4 | 10 Jul 2003 10:25 |
Grand Prix Manager : French Grand Prix | Asp | Formula One | 6 | 3 Jul 2003 10:31 |
Grand Prix 4 ... Why didn't they call it Grand Prix 2.5? | DNQ | Virtual Racers | 18 | 27 Oct 2002 17:09 |