Drivers to marshal?

[Doc Hollywood]

Hey guys,

Motorsport Ireland introduced somthing along these lines a few years ago for rallying. The rule stated that if you didnt supply 1 person capable of marshalling the whole day then your entry fee was EUR100 more expensive. It worked well enough until they realised the lack of intrest in marshalling resulted in dangerous acts of heroism or just dangerous acts of stupidity.

What you have to be careful of is the driver who knows it all and decides himself that it is safe to sprint accross the gravel trap and turn his back to the traffic because its his mate thats stuck in the muck. It would have to be very carefully monitored and drivers disobeying the 'senior' marshals instruction would have to be reigned in. The idea isnt a bad one, but having your hands full babysitting a driver might turn out to be worse than not having him there at all.

This would have to be seen as an opportunity to enlighten drivers rather than an attempt to boost numbers.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by PipSqueak111

As I understood it, all the chiefs, etc do have to do a certain number of days on the bank anyway to maintain their licenses.

You certainly don't to maintain a Clerk's licence but I don't have a problem with the idea. Could be fun and just imagine how much 'stick' we'd get!

[Gerryc]

I voted "encouraged" because compulsion has various disadvantages:

Someone marshalling who doesn't want to be there is not someone who I would want to watch my back at an incident.

Compulsion would be a nightmare / impossible to police.

Compulsion could make drivers miss a race and any opportunities to get prize money / sponsorship / media coverage etc. again leading to a "bad attitude" to marshalling.

As for compulsion as part of the ARDS test or on upgrading: I would favour compulsion on upgrading from any level to any other, not just at black cross removal. Compulsion is fine in this instance because it could (should!) be sold to the driver as part of their driving education, especially the education on safety and motorsport ethics (whatever they are in this day and age!)

Gerry

[beefy]

I think it depends on the driver. I have marshalled with drivers who have had to do it and have done very little to help and have shown no appreciation of what we do. On the other hand, there have been drivers who have been absolutely fantastic on post, helping out and giving their perspective as drivers as to what they see when they are racing in our sector.
One of the busiest days I have ever had was with a driver partnering me. I think he was quite surpised with what we do!
So to sum up my novel, I think that drivers should be encouraged to marshal but not forced to. I wouldn't want to drive!

[dtype38]

When I started racing I sort of took it for granted that the boys and girls in orange were all pretty well trained and that I would be in safe hands. After all, in an emergency I would be relying on for my safety. I was slightly surprised that a day's marshalling could count towards my Nat A licence but I assumed that it would involve some sort of "classroom" before I could actually do it for real.

I hadn't really thought much more about it until recently when I volunteered for some marshalling down at Lydden Hill to "fill in" due to a lack of marshalls at that particular meeting. I was quite willing and enthusiastic, but to be honest, I had no idea what I was supposed to do. I didn't know any of the procedures or anything, so I really didn't know what help I could be. Actually I was just hoping that I wouldn't be a hinderance.

As it turned out, there was plenty marshalls at the post I was on, so I was told that I would only be needed if the track needed a major clean up. It didn't, so I just saw a good days racing from a great place to watch. My team mate wasn't so lucky however. He was making up 50% of the manpower at the post he was on!

My point is, when I'm out on track, it would make me rather uneasy to think the there were a significant number of marshalls positions being filled by "untrained" drivers. They may be great drivers, but do they know one end of a fire extinguisher from the other? Maybe you could make them wear a big yellow box with a black "X" on their back so that everybody would know that they were a novice. Or perhaps you could put one on the marshalls post, so that if I have an engine fire I can pull up beside one without an "X" so that I can get expert help?

More seriously though, drivers aren't allowed out on track before they've passed an ARDS course to check they have at least the basics to be safe. Should marshalling not be the same?

[DaveW]

Dtype38 - there are numerous training days organised for marshals but these tend to be pre-season. However, once you've passed you ARDS course you are then out there with no support or someone to point out that what you may be doing wrong until after 've finished. As a novice marshal you would placed with someone of experience and would not be working solo. Even if your team mate was 50% of the crew he still had someone looking out for him.

[dtype38]

That's good to hear, but we weren't talking about novice marshals. We were talking about drivers doing a day's marshalling. Should they be doing that with no training at all, even if under the supervision of the other marshals? If there was an accident, wouldn't it be better if the marshals were able to concentrate on what they have to do, and not be having to keep an eye on the driver-marshal as well.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for drivers doing marshalling. I'm just suggesting that maybe a day's marshal training would be a better place to start.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by dtype38

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for drivers doing marshalling. I'm just suggesting that maybe a day's marshal training would be a better place to start.

It's hard enough to get drivers to marshal on the bank let alone making them do a days training as well.
The biggest problem I have had with marshaling as a novice is boredom. Both occasions I have been there I have had a go at flagging (under supervision) for a couple of races. I also had a go at sweeping up gravel, but apart from that I found I was doing nothing most of the day (except eating donuts)despite being on post 3 at Brands on one occasion.
The upside is that being on corner posts both times has contributed to my tool box as it is surprising the stuff that gets left on cars when they leave the paddock.

[whatapalaver]

I would be tempted to suggest that the 1st and last options are the same. The feeling behind voting for either must be almost the same. "Should" is not "must".

There are so many race meetings I doubt a driver would need to miss a race to marshal, unless it was left to the last meeting in the season.

Falcemob makes a fair point about boredom. "Magnet on/ magnet off" was another thread, and marshals get bored too! I would not suggest that a marshal would wish for an incident (or a driver would wish that car in front would just wave him by...) but sometimes you get very close...

Just one day a year does not seem an unreasonable request.

From my track day time (thanks to JP and MSV) I found just how hard it is to see the marshal post and the flags, so the view from the bank for the driver must be just as useful.

[Ian Sowman]

Originally Posted by whatapalaver

Just one day a year does not seem an unreasonable request.

From my track day time (thanks to JP and MSV) I found just how hard it is to see the marshal post and the flags, so the view from the bank for the driver must be just as useful.

Undoubtedly it is useful. I have marshalled on occasion, when having a weekend off from commentary/reporting, and found it so.

However, there is a BIG difference between saying that it should be mandatory to make someone do something that they may not want to do, in which case they may do it badly, and saying that people should be encouraged to do it.

[peenuts]

I use to sprint now i do racing, i use to marshal at sprint meetings when not sprinting and have marshalled at lydden on 2 or 3 times,at race meetings .I would like to see all drivers do some marshalling in a year say one weekend not only to see what a great job you guys and girls do, but just what is involved,all day not just for one race. I work on the roads at difficult times
in a 3 man gang when training a new person 2 expreince men 1 novice safety allways comes frist. I would like to see this in motor sport 3persons to each post as a mininum requirement safety for all...
THANKS ONCE AGAIN FOR A GREAT JOB GUYS AND GIRLS

[phansa88]

If you want to do motorsport then you must put something back into the events and as other people say add it onto your licence as extra points on your championship as a race win say.

[gravel_monkey]

i do feel drivers should have at least one day marshalling. i dont know if this is a common thing, but last year at the new brighton rally a driver who had broke down on our post had to wait untill the next stage had finished before he could be picked up so he was stood with me and another marshall at the start of the stage. to let you know, untill he had broken down the driver in question was 3rd overall so he was pretty quick. as the first car come through our check point i looked round and the driver and co-driver who were stood with us had vanished into the spectators as they got scared by the speed of the approaching car, just shows, some drivers dont realise what we do.

[Ian Sowman]

Originally Posted by phansa88

If you want to do motorsport then you must put something back into the events and as other people say add it onto your licence as extra points on your championship as a race win say.

Why must you?

Having had a think about it, I'm not especially keen on the idea of giving points for marshalling either.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by phansa88

If you want to do motorsport then you must put something back into the events

We do, it's called time and money, lots and lots of it.

[Dean Watson]

Originally Posted by dtype38

That's good to hear, but we weren't talking about novice marshals. We were talking about drivers doing a day's marshalling. Should they be doing that with no training at all, even if under the supervision of the other marshals? If there was an accident, wouldn't it be better if the marshals were able to concentrate on what they have to do, and not be having to keep an eye on the driver-marshal as well.

In my opinion 70% of marshal know how is common sense, backed up with training. Granted fire and first aid are a bit more specialised and training advantageous which is why all circuits have the highly trained personel manning rescue units and fire trucks, and as has been mentioned in other posts there is always at least 1 experienced marshal on every post, so the flag phone or radio can if need be, handed to the inexperienced post member to call the cavalry.

Besides at some meetings the company would be nice

As for the poll I voted "should be encouraged" as compulsion would lead to endless problems on both sides (IMO)

[Dean Watson]

Was observer on post 11 at Mallory Park today and was joined by a driver who is racing tomorrow in a Jaguar, this will be only his third race and decided that rather travel just for 1 day racing he would come early and spend a day on the bank and earn an extra signature. At the end of an uneventfull day he said that it was an enjoyable day and that he had learned a lot not only the various lines and the results of wrong ones, but also a lot of the procedures ie reporting incidents, fluid leaks etc. he also said that drivers SHOULD spend a day marshaling COMPULSARY.

[mitzi dude]

Yes I reckon they should do some time. on points. or when they do something wrong, thats a good penalty. some hate that one. and I think it would do some the world of good. the Y's and where fors of the coloured rags.

[mini1400]

Originally Posted by mitzi dude

Yes I reckon they should do some time. on points. or when they do something wrong, thats a good penalty.

So Plato & Neal would spend every other weekend on the bank

[whatapalaver]

Originally Posted by mini1400

So Plato & Neal would spend every other weekend on the bank

Can it be the same post?