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Old 18 Jul 2012, 00:29 (Ref:3107790)   #136
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That may be, but who would it be? Lola is, well, in difficulties. Swift is getting out of the design business. Panoz has been substantially downsized in the last few years. Riley has no particular experience with serious open-wheelers, that I am aware of. What existing firm is there on the scale that we need, much less having more than one to choose from?
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Old 18 Jul 2012, 06:28 (Ref:3107837)   #137
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That may be, but who would it be? Lola is, well, in difficulties. Swift is getting out of the design business. Panoz has been substantially downsized in the last few years. Riley has no particular experience with serious open-wheelers, that I am aware of. What existing firm is there on the scale that we need, much less having more than one to choose from?
There was a queue of chassis makers angling for the contract a year and a bit ago. What happened?
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Old 18 Jul 2012, 11:49 (Ref:3107943)   #138
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I really hope so. The DW12 was flawed from the start. I'd like the contract to be given to someone who can actually make a decent race car, with a really good racing pedigree like Lola.
Judging by the on track racing product - what is wrong with the Dallara in 2012?

The racing has been sensational
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Old 18 Jul 2012, 18:16 (Ref:3108104)   #139
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Judging by the on track racing product - what is wrong with the Dallara in 2012?

The racing has been sensational
They are ugly and chubby and do not look sufficiently convincing to turn the heads needed to see Indycar reenter the American consciousness as a national sport from its current limbo.

The racing certainly has been satisfying with fresh cars with untapped potential but future prospects are uncertain as to whether this trend will continue throughout the development cycle when the teams have thoroughly mined these cars for their competitiveness. These are the challenges of single-make series.
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Old 18 Jul 2012, 22:47 (Ref:3108250)   #140
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Judging by the on track racing product - what is wrong with the Dallara in 2012?

The racing has been sensational
The reason why the racing has been sensational, is due to the DW12 being a ground effect car. About half the downforce is generated by the car, not purely by the wings as was the case with the old Dallara. Ground effect produces a lot less drag and therefore wake, making it easier for the car behind to get up closer and overtake the car in front.

Just look at the oval racing this season, no more of that pack racing nonsense, the drivers have to control the car.

What's wrong with the current Dallara is it's badly designed. Reynard, Lola, etc. didn't need to put a lump of metal in the nose of the car to balance the front end with the arse end and those cars were racing how many years ago?
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Old 18 Jul 2012, 23:15 (Ref:3108267)   #141
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They are ugly and chubby and do not look sufficiently convincing to turn the heads needed to see Indycar reenter the American consciousness ....
I reckon this is the problem. Indycar needs to come down either as a national series wanting to evoke American emotion, or as a genuine international series with world-class (I.e primarily non-North-American) drivers. It can't do both.

It then follows the 500 is a big American race or an international sideshow. Again it cannot be both.
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Old 19 Jul 2012, 00:13 (Ref:3108289)   #142
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I reckon this is the problem. Indycar needs to come down either as a national series wanting to evoke American emotion, or as a genuine international series with world-class (I.e primarily non-North-American) drivers. It can't do both.

It then follows the 500 is a big American race or an international sideshow. Again it cannot be both.
The 500 was and still is peculiarly American. In the '60s Colin Chapman and Jim Clark took it on. In the 70s, McLaren produced one of the best cars in the M16 and come the '80s and early '90s drivers like Emo and Mansell reforged their careers; the 500 was never an international sideshow.

It's still peculiarly American but with very little international interest outside of die hard fans, it is becoming a sideshow.
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Old 19 Jul 2012, 00:26 (Ref:3108300)   #143
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I reckon this is the problem. Indycar needs to come down either as a national series wanting to evoke American emotion, or as a genuine international series with world-class (I.e primarily non-North-American) drivers. It can't do both.

It then follows the 500 is a big American race or an international sideshow. Again it cannot be both.
#1 option is the only shot, as the #2 option is already hogged up by Formula 1.

They do not have any cohesive strategy. You have the pork tenderloin crowd in Indianapolis that do not understand a whole other world exists outside the I-465 freeway and who's "lack of vision" failed miserably and are now trying to glom on to the series they so desperately hated and wanted out of business(CART). Since they always hated CART and never understood it, they don't understand what they are doing now and what made CART so successful. It's like people who have taken a great brand name from the past and reinvented it and brought it back to life. In almost all cases it fails miserably. They thought they could slap the "Indycar" nameplate on their merged series and all would be good, but it takes a lot more than that.

The brand name scenario is the same for the hulman george family. The current generation is several generations removed from the original patriarch that brought the speedway back to life in 1946. They are so far removed they don't understand that either. To prove my point 100%, all you have to do is look at the "Month of May" and how far that has fallen. That used to be a month long circus that brought great wealth to the local area and great media and sponsorship interest. Pole day and bump day were huge. Look at them now, where are they and who cares? Tickets used to be a major deal to get. Now you can get them for $10. They can't even run and sustain previous success at their own track, so how do you expect them to run a whole championship?

When I was a teenager, the Indy 500 was a big deal you heard about for a month. Just about anyone that had a brain could name a few drivers and knew the race existed. Now it's just another race meeting and in the public consciousness it's like a fart in the wind. It's funny now if people do hear about it they are surprised the race still runs and they definitely do not know the drivers.

Mark my words:

The irl will never succeed under the ownership of the hulman georges. It will never thrive and prosper under their leadership and ownership.

They cannot see the woods from the trees.

The only hope is new blood and new ownership.
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Old 19 Jul 2012, 01:22 (Ref:3108315)   #144
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I reckon this is the problem. Indycar needs to come down either as a national series wanting to evoke American emotion, or as a genuine international series with world-class (I.e primarily non-North-American) drivers. It can't do both.

It then follows the 500 is a big American race or an international sideshow. Again it cannot be both.
It's a chicken and egg cycle that Indycar is too weak to break, atm. What drives the internationalisation of Indycar is money or the mirage of money. There's a scarcity of money for racing domestically - or at least NASCAR hoovers it all up - so Indycar is dragged abroad looking for cash sometimes towards oriental mirages like that phantom Chinese race and to Europe to get wealthy drivers. South America is closer to home but Indycar cannot live on South Americans alone.

Indycar needs to be an American series with a strident American identity and they need to retain that American philosophy. It's a critical ingredient for the series and, just to add to that, if the American character was protected, Indycar's international stature would blossom too. Indycar as just another cosmopolitan single-make championship with plastic-looking cars, it just doesn't stand out.
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Old 19 Jul 2012, 07:01 (Ref:3108403)   #145
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Indycar needs to be an American series with a strident American identity and they need to retain that American philosophy. It's a critical ingredient for the series and, just to add to that, if the American character was protected, Indycar's international stature would blossom too.
My problem with that is that in today's market, NASCAR has that aspect all sewn up. An attempt by IndyCar to assert its mimic "American-ness" would look like it was mimicking NASCAR, and it would come off badly. It would seem like IndyCar was trying to take on NASCAR at their own game, and if they do that, NASCAR would win easily (not that they're not doing so now). To me, the main thing IndyCar has going for it is that it's not NASCAR, that it is more international in appeal.
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Old 19 Jul 2012, 11:52 (Ref:3108543)   #146
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Indycar needs to be an American series with a strident American identity and they need to retain that American philosophy. It's a critical ingredient for the series and, just to add to that, if the American character was protected, Indycar's international stature would blossom too. Indycar as just another cosmopolitan single-make championship with plastic-looking cars, it just doesn't stand out.
Isn't that precisely what Tony George envisaged? An American series, with American drivers racing on ovals, which are identifiably American.

I thought CART got it right. It very much kept the American identity, with a great mixture of classic American road courses a few street circuits and of course ovals. I never felt that attracting an international element did any harm and infact helped garner interest outside of America and attract valuable international sponsorship, something Tony George completely failed to do.
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Old 19 Jul 2012, 23:21 (Ref:3108817)   #147
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Isn't that precisely what Tony George envisaged? An American series, with American drivers racing on ovals, which are identifiably American.

I thought CART got it right. It very much kept the American identity, with a great mixture of classic American road courses a few street circuits and of course ovals. I never felt that attracting an international element did any harm and infact helped garner interest outside of America and attract valuable international sponsorship, something Tony George completely failed to do.
George wanted to be an oval king ruling over a series made up of oval bosses and he perpetuated a myth that all-ovals was all-American, a delusion fueled by the NASCAR ethos and with AJ Foyt goading him on. This myth was a false one.

CART embodied an ethos of grass-roots enterprise. A series where frontiersmen battled on multiple terrain and that's the American tradition.
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Old 19 Jul 2012, 23:34 (Ref:3108821)   #148
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George wanted to be an oval king ruling over a series made up of oval bosses and he perpetuated a myth that all-ovals was all-American, a delusion fueled by the NASCAR ethos and with AJ Foyt goading him on. This myth was a false one.

CART embodied an ethos of grass-roots enterprise. A series where frontiersmen battled on multiple terrain and that's the American tradition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx0KNgFJKJc

This hilarious propaganda video from 1997 the IRL and Chairman George put out says otherwise.
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Old 20 Jul 2012, 01:59 (Ref:3108846)   #149
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George wanted to be an oval king ruling over a series made up of oval bosses and he perpetuated a myth that all-ovals was all-American, a delusion fueled by the NASCAR ethos and with AJ Foyt goading him on. This myth was a false one.

CART embodied an ethos of grass-roots enterprise. A series where frontiersmen battled on multiple terrain and that's the American tradition.
You're right here. But I fear mountainstar's opinion is correct that the current ownership group won't be able to lead the series back to CART's glory.

Chris
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Old 20 Jul 2012, 02:19 (Ref:3108850)   #150
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