BTCC 2012 rumour mill

[gregc]

Read what auroan wrote again.

The only way to change it is for the fastest of each chassis/engine combination to slow down

The calculation is done based on the single quickest car of each combination. So if Shedden is the quickest Honda, his and only his times will be used.

Edit - beaten to it

[Sodemo]

If they need to do performance equalization at all, why can't they just dyno the engines at the start of the year and have them all set to "350 bhp" and have done with it. Why the need for meddling after every few rounds?

[gregc]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

If they need to do performance equalization at all, why can't they just dyno the engines at the start of the year and have them all set to "350 bhp" and have done with it. Why the need for meddling after every few rounds?

That's the real problem this year and I intensely dislike the fact that Dynamics/Honda (this year - could easily be 888 next....) are getting penalised for developing the best car. I don't have an issue with a pre season equalisation really, it's as you say - it's the constant tinkering...

Anyway, hopefully Dick Bennetts' boost-adjustment-predictor-of-doom* has got it right and the MGs and Hondas will be moved back closer together.

*spreadsheet

[awrb]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

If they need to do performance equalization at all, why can't they just dyno the engines at the start of the year and have them all set to "350 bhp" and have done with it. Why the need for meddling after every few rounds?

Well the problem with that is how the engine delivers the power. One will be more drivable and deliver its power in a more useful way than the other. So it will be better and people will moan.

Why do we suddenly have engine equalisation anyway? Where's this come from? A few years ago we didn't have it and no one had an engine that was so much better than the others they just drove away with it. There is absolutely no way to equalise engines because as soon as you do anything it becomes political, people think they are being victimised or someone else has come out of the equalisation process better off. The the moaning starts and people get really dissatisfied. Not to mention that if the engines are properly equalised they may as well all use the Swindon unit.

[CarsCarsCars]

IMO the regs should outline how the engine can perform (ie must have a turbo be 2-litre etc. and more specific ones) so they all perform fairly evenly but teams can still have room to imorove and tweak.

As said above, this wasnt an issue before so why now? If every car had equal boost surely straight line speed would be quite even.

[Craner Curves]

It's not quite as simple as giving a car x amount of boost and them being even. For example the Golf has a lot of boost, but it's not producing lots of power due to the limitations of the engine design.

[Sodemo]

Forgive me for over simplifying this, however what I believe has happened is that Honda have actually gone out and produced a full on racing 2.0L turbo engine, all singing all dancing, however a lot of the other engines are a lot more basic (the TOCA unit - perhaps road going origins?) and are relying on a big turbo to give them the power?

Please correct me if I am wrong on that, however what I understood was that some teams designed full on racing engines, and others had adapted road going blocks...?

[auroan]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Forgive me for over simplifying this, however what I believe has happened is that Honda have actually gone out and produced a full on racing 2.0L turbo engine, all singing all dancing, however a lot of the other engines are a lot more basic (the TOCA unit - perhaps road going origins?) and are relying on a big turbo to give them the power?

Please correct me if I am wrong on that, however what I understood was that some teams designed full on racing engines, and others had adapted road going blocks...?

Not quite. All engine builders have to use road going engines and certain components from said engine as the base of their race versions. It just so happens that the Honda engine is a very strong engine in road going trim, and Neil Brown who build them have a lot of experience in getting the best out of it. Look how good the BMW NGTC engines are (which are also Neil Brown engines)

[Spanner monkey]

however what I believe has happened is that Honda have actually gone out and produced a full on racing 2.0L turbo engine, all singing all dancing, however a lot of the other engines are a lot more basic (the TOCA unit - perhaps road going origins?) and are relying on a big turbo to give them the power?

The rules are the same for ALL engine builders & the turbo is a spec item. I believe Team hard lease an NBE engine (same as the NGTC spec in the TD/pirtek cars) for around £25,000 per season much cheaper than the bespoke World racing engines that RML lease to customers for 100k per season!!!!

[Spanner monkey]

Why build a good car/engine combination when you'll just get your boost turned down so that the bloke in the shopping trolley can keep up?

Did'nt think the MG6 was as bad as a shopping trolley...

[Spanner monkey]

For example the Golf has a lot of boost, but it's not producing lots of power due to the limitations of the engine design.

Or is the handling/aero not good enough? Even though they have done alot to bring it up to a competative S2000 spec.. All respect to AMD for taking on the challeng

[ckBrenneke]

Originally Posted by Aunt Sally

Go on!

Someone else is!!!!

Pirtek?

[Jiiiiiiim]

Originally Posted by ckBrenneke

Pirtek?

Well Pirtek did say they considered using the Vectra for Silverstone so maybe if it is one of the Full NGTC spec Honda's that r sticking a Swindon unit in they'd give it a go!?!

If its not one of the full NGTC spec cars what about Team Hard and their S2000 Civic, seems they will have Swindon units in the Insignia!?!

[BtccLee]

I didn't think we were having boost changes next year?

[medius]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

It's not quite as simple as giving a car x amount of boost and them being even. For example the Golf has a lot of boost, but it's not producing lots of power due to the limitations of the engine design.

Same Lehmann unit in the RAR Audis, doesn't have much of a problem in those does it?

[Craner Curves]

Originally Posted by Spanner monkey

Or is the handling/aero not good enough? Even though they have done alot to bring it up to a competative S2000 spec.. All respect to AMD for taking on the challeng

Ollie Jackson posted elsewhere that the engine design was the limiting factor, no matter how much boost.

Originally Posted by medius

Same Lehmann unit in the RAR Audis, doesn't have much of a problem in those does it?

RAR aren't using them anymore apparantly. They were kicking out 350BHP last year and they still are. They haven't got any faster, everyone else has caught up.

[auroan]

Originally Posted by medius

Same Lehmann unit in the RAR Audis, doesn't have much of a problem in those does it?

execpt it isn't. The Audis run a Petel ecu and other mandatory ngtc stuff. The golf runs a Bosch ecu. They having different intakes, manifolds, exhausts etc. Only the block, turbo
and fuel rail is the same.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

Ollie Jackson posted elsewhere that the engine design was the limiting factor, no matter how much boost.



RAR aren't using them anymore apparantly. They were kicking out 350BHP last year and they still are. They haven't got any faster, everyone else has caught up.

Who's doing RAR engines?

[andy97]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Who's doing RAR engines?

Field Motorsport?
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/103481

[markreeves]

Surprised no one’s mentioned Plato's post about boost pressures for Brands

Audi A4 NGTC 0.100
Honda Civic NGTC 0.050
MG 6 NGTC TOCA 0.000
Proton NGTC TOCA 0.075
Toyota Avensis NGTC 0.075
Toyota Avensis NGTC TOCA 0.100
Vauxhall Insignia NGTC TOCA 0.125
BMW S2000 T 0.075
Ford Focus NGTC 0.050
Ford Focus S2000 T 0.100
Honda Civic S2000 T 0.100
Vauxhall Vectra S2000 T TOCA 0.100
VW Golf S2000 T 0.125

These are only the adjustments from the amount set at the start of the year though, so you still dont know what the actual amount is.

[W.A Trichlorostyrene]

Also from Plato, here's the boost for the latest round at Silverstone:

Audi A4 NGTC 0.125
Honda Civic NGTC 0.000
MG 6 NGTC TOCA 0.050
Proton NGTC TOCA 0.100
Toyota Avensis NGTC 0.100
Toyota Avensis NGTC TOCA 0.075
Vauxhall Insignia NGTC TOCA 0.100
BMW S2000 T 0.050
Ford Focus NGTC 0.075
Ford Focus S2000 T 0.100
Honda Civic S2000 T 0.125
Vauxhall Vectra S2000 T TOCA 0.125
VW Golf S2000 T 0.125

[Spanner monkey]

Don't assume that the base boost level is the same for all the engines. Toca did flow work last year & set a baseline figure for each engine.
It does not mention the actual boost figures the cars baselines are set too. The Hondas base could be 1.6 & the MG at silverstone could of been 1.725 so loosing 0.050 boost from silverstone figures on the engine would'nt be that bad

But like mentioned elsewhere this is not official team statement - just what JP has posted..

[auroan]

The only base boost I know is the NBE Engine'd Honda's at 1.5Bar

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by auroan

The only base boost I know is the NBE Engine'd Honda's at 1.5Bar

This article describes the base flow analysis carried out.

An interesting point in this though is the mention that the performance calculation is an average.

I would hazard a guess that Plato and Neate's average is a lot lower than Neal, Shedden, Jordan and Smith's.....

'Thereafter, during the course of the season, a strict mathematic calculation – based on a rolling average of each model’s qualifying and lap times over a set number of events – will determine if any further changes should be made to their respective boost levels.'

[davyboy]

Ya, but is that the average of the fastest driver... or the average across everyone using that model of car ?