2013 Australian F3 Series

FAS33 · 6 Apr 2013, 01:08 (Ref:3229779)

Does anyone follow it?

What's not to like about this series, it has a good field, tracks are good. And their faster than V8 super cars on lap times, with Nathan Morcom breaking the fastest officially recorded lap time of Bathurst.

Latest news has it that James Winslow is retiring from F3 to focus on a seat in the V8's. formula3.com.au.

ptclaus98 · 6 Apr 2013, 01:52 (Ref:3229792)

I've seen some races, but it's not on any sort of ladder, and Australia(as well as the rest of the world sans Italy) loves it's tintops far more than it's open wheelers. It seems like glorified club racing, IMO. I don't mean that in a bad way, either. I'd love to have a somewhat televised F3 series in the States as well. Even if it was only 10-15 cars every weekend.

Darcia1 · 6 Apr 2013, 05:45 (Ref:3229830)

Its a good series the past couple years they the series have put in a great deal of effort with sponsors and reducing cost Ian Richards and co have done tremendously with the depth of young guys that are competeing ... Sad to see the older guys gone but they now race in the FRCA NSW racing championship and have great grids of 16+ cars cars there from f396 to f304 and they also cater for other forms of open wheel cars such as formula holden early f2/f3 etc
If you enjoy this racing Natsoft had live timing this morning from Tasmania rd of the F3 Championsip which is part of the V8s......

dirtymacca · 6 Apr 2013, 06:23 (Ref:3229840)

Isn't this the Australian Touring Cars thread? Or am I lost?

rich07 · 6 Apr 2013, 07:21 (Ref:3229852)

Well there used to be a thread in the National & International Single Seaters subforum which would be more appropriate for this discussion..

formerf1champ · 6 Apr 2013, 07:26 (Ref:3229854)

I don't think Australia's economy can sustain current F3 cars, in a full on Australian championship series (I can understand a decent field in clubbies). If Britain can't maintain a high standard of F3, forget Australia doing it. The only chance, if any, Australia has of maintaining a successful, is if the class flourishes in Europe. It's not.

Anybody who's paid attention to my posts in the F1/single seater threads knows my opinion. A big, open wheel series without wings, or performance enhancing wings. Australia could be the country that initiates it. It's a good idea, even if I do say so myself.

JohnMiller · 6 Apr 2013, 08:17 (Ref:3229862)

Quote:

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

I don't think Australia's economy can sustain current F3 cars, in a full on Australian championship series (I can understand a decent field in clubbies). If Britain can't maintain a high standard of F3, forget Australia doing it. The only chance, if any, Australia has of maintaining a successful, is if the class flourishes in Europe. It's not.

Two series with 30 cars and one pushing 20, it's not exactly not flourishing. Just the series that provide worst value have suffered.

formerf1champ · 6 Apr 2013, 08:39 (Ref:3229863)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

Two series with 30 cars and one pushing 20, it's not exactly not flourishing. Just the series that provide worst value have suffered.

You've just strengthened my point. I don't pay attention to the European F3. The occasions in look through the single seater threads, I often read how Euro F3 has decent grids, along with Euro Open. I had no idea the Open class existed.

one five five · 6 Apr 2013, 14:56 (Ref:3229949)

The problem is F3 just does not appeal to the masses in Australia, and is just seen as another ladder to V8Supercars these days.

Open-wheel racing needs a major shake up to start attracting people back to it in some form. Even Formula Holden had abit of 'sex appeal' that allowed it to stand on its own for a while.

They need to put some spice back into it with a set of regulations that will appeal to Australia....the obvious answer surely is a set of regulations with engine regs the exact same as V8Supercars.... The old line about having a set of regs which gives drivers a taste of Europe is garbage, surely the farce that was Formula Pacific/Mondial in Australia proved that....

F3 as it is is just going round in circles year on year, there seems to be no forward planning other than to keep rolling out the same F307's year on year...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

It seems like glorified club racing, IMO.

A glorified club series??

The series is awarded the highest honour in Australian motor racing, they compete for the Gold Star and the Australian Drivers Championship.

**GTRMagic** · 7 Apr 2013, 02:50 (Ref:3230146)

Errrr....

ptclaus98 · 7 Apr 2013, 03:22 (Ref:3230153)

Quote:

Originally Posted by one five five

The problem is F3 just does not appeal to the masses in Australia, and is just seen as another ladder to V8Supercars these days.

Open-wheel racing needs a major shake up to start attracting people back to it in some form. Even Formula Holden had abit of 'sex appeal' that allowed it to stand on its own for a while.

They need to put some spice back into it with a set of regulations that will appeal to Australia....the obvious answer surely is a set of regulations with engine regs the exact same as V8Supercars.... The old line about having a set of regs which gives drivers a taste of Europe is garbage, surely the farce that was Formula Pacific/Mondial in Australia proved that....

F3 as it is is just going round in circles year on year, there seems to be no forward planning other than to keep rolling out the same F307's year on year...

A glorified club series??

The series is awarded the highest honour in Australian motor racing, they compete for the Gold Star and the Australian Drivers Championship.

Hence the term glorified.

Icarus_nz · 7 Apr 2013, 04:38 (Ref:3230176)

Quote:

Originally Posted by one five five

They need to put some spice back into it with a set of regulations that will appeal to Australia....the obvious answer surely is a set of regulations with engine regs the exact same as V8Supercars....

Please clarify what you mean. Are you suggesting a V8 powered single seater class?

F3 is an incredibly technical class and a driver can learn soooooooo much by doing it.
As with all championship classes that race all over the country it is expensive.
The cars are fairly fragile and (esp Dallara) parts are a bit gold plated.
The engine rules mean that rebuilds come along frequently also

For all that, I don't believe the viewing public know how to watch a single seater race. "They all drone round in a line" They don't relate to the cars, they don't know who the drivers are.

I remember watching an F3 practice session at Silverstonen 05 or 06 (?) from the inside of Copse then watching the Grand Prix Masters straight afterward (the 3.5l V8 class for retired F1 drivers)
THe Masters cars sounded great but were such a dray! The F3's were brilliant to watch as they sythed through Becketts - so fast mid corner and twitching on the edge of adhesion

D.R.T. · 7 Apr 2013, 09:04 (Ref:3230256)

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAS33

Does anyone follow it?

Have you not heard nor followed the series before today?

FAS33 · 7 Apr 2013, 09:36 (Ref:3230276)

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Have you not heard nor followed the series before today?

are they those things that go round a track and have 4 wheels on them?

Umai Naa · 7 Apr 2013, 09:39 (Ref:3230278)

You must be new around here.

FAS33 · 7 Apr 2013, 09:56 (Ref:3230285)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

You must be new around here.

we all start somewhere, fair comment? I just wanted to create an awareness sort of thing as another alternative to the tintops.
actually knew this series existed back in my driving days............. on PS2 - V8 Supercars 3 FTW! aah good times

ForumNick · 7 Apr 2013, 10:32 (Ref:3230306)

All very interesting!!!

But belongs here: http://tentenths.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=26

(The Mod should have moved this thread, rather than legitimising it by contributing to it)

formerf1champ · 7 Apr 2013, 11:04 (Ref:3230317)

Quote:

Originally Posted by one five five

The problem is F3 just does not appeal to the masses in Australia, and is just seen as another ladder to V8Supercars these days.

I'm certain now that the problem with with open wheel racing all over the world is that it's seen as a stepping stone to somewhere, be it F1, Indycars, V8s, whatever. Governing bodies all over ought ot start changing the image of these cars/series so that all types of competitors see it as a serious option to compete in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by one five five

A glorified club series??

The series is awarded the highest honour in Australian motor racing, they compete for the Gold Star and the Australian Drivers Championship.

Yeah, but it's not taken seriously isn't it? It only has that honour because there is no other series to give it to. I knew what ptclaus98 meant.

**GTRMagic** · 7 Apr 2013, 11:59 (Ref:3230343)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForumNick

All very interesting!!!

But belongs here: http://tentenths.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=26

(The Mod should have moved this thread, rather than legitimising it by contributing to it)

Last year there wasnt even a 2012 AF3 thread, they just kept going on the 2011 thread. I changed the title with a view to moving it to NISS when the content bulked up

one five five · 7 Apr 2013, 12:14 (Ref:3230349)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Please clarify what you mean. Are you suggesting a V8 powered single seater class?

Most definatly

touring car racing went 'back to the future' in 1993 with V8s. The last time Australian open-wheel racing had any 'prescence' in Australia was in the late-70s with Formula 5000.

Even when the formula was in its 'death throws' due to influential people pushing the "Formula Pacific" barrow, a Rothmans Series round at Sandown could still pull 30,000+

Why not do the obvious? There are plenty of chassis around the world that can take a V8, and we have a perfect V8 engine formula in Australia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

F3 is an incredibly technical class and a driver can learn soooooooo much by doing it.
As with all championship classes that race all over the country it is expensive.
The cars are fairly fragile and (esp Dallara) parts are a bit gold plated.
The engine rules mean that rebuilds come along frequently also

We were fed the "incredibly technical class and a driver can learn soooooooo much by doing it" line as the reason for dropping F5000 for Formula Pacific, and the same again as a reason for dropping Formula Brabham for F3 in 2003... the problem is in both cases all the promises have been followed by small grids...

The fact you mention the cars are fairly fragile, parts are gold plated & engines rules mean frequent rebuilds, hardly makes a case for keeping F3.

Formula 3 is not an 'aspirtational category', why not get some open-wheelers that are abit 'lairy', get the punters attention and in time with some correct marketing, might give tracks a nice second attraction to the V8 meeting as we've had in past years with TOCA, PROCAR and Supertrucks

Quote:

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

I'm certain now that the problem with with open wheel racing all over the world is that it's seen as a stepping stone to somewhere, be it F1, Indycars, V8s, whatever.

Its a problem with open wheel racing all over the world is that it's seen as a stepping stone to F1 or Indycars??

Surely the point of any open-wheel category is to be a stepping stone to those two classes only!

FordCosworthPanoz · 7 Apr 2013, 16:09 (Ref:3230434)

Well, more often than not series like F3 actually become stepping stones to Sportscar Racing/GT or Touring cars, whether they're intended to be that way or not.

Icarus_nz · 7 Apr 2013, 19:28 (Ref:3230513)

Sorry, I can't agree one five five.

I understand the sentiment of a big engined car but increased hp = an exponential increase in running costs.
The aim is to increase the grid sizes I thought.

A good example of a modern v8 'lairy' single seater would be a1gp (now auto gp)

Each formula is 'of its time'. F5000 was all big tyres and mechanical grip. F Atlantic were tunnel cars and perfectly relevant to their time.
As you know F Holden (3000) were big aero cars - starting in the time of flat bottoms. The 'local content' v6 was an attempt to control costs.
Current F3 are one of the most 'aero' formula out there and there well relevant to everything up the tree and, as pointed out, sportscars.

Really there are two choices. Go to a cost effective class I.e. F Renault or its variants or introduce yet another mongrel class that is big and noisy as you've suggested.
To make it cost effective however it would invariably be crude and have no appeal or relevance to young fellas.
In is sense tat wouldn't matter except the class would be full of fat old blokes of dubious ability. Not really compelling viewing.

I wonder if the situation is Aus would be any different now if Toyota Australia had got behind the Toyota Racing Series around 06 - 07?

Not as much to learn but certainly much more affordable...

ForumNick · 7 Apr 2013, 23:08 (Ref:3230637)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Last year there wasnt even a 2012 AF3 thread, they just kept going on the 2011 thread. I changed the title with a view to moving it to NISS when the content bulked up

Ok... but they're still not 'Touring Cars' !

Tourer · 7 Apr 2013, 23:59 (Ref:3230646)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Sorry, I can't agree one five five.

I understand the sentiment of a big engined car but increased hp = an exponential increase in running costs.
The aim is to increase the grid sizes I thought.

A good example of a modern v8 'lairy' single seater would be a1gp (now auto gp)

Each formula is 'of its time'. F5000 was all big tyres and mechanical grip. F Atlantic were tunnel cars and perfectly relevant to their time.
As you know F Holden (3000) were big aero cars - starting in the time of flat bottoms. The 'local content' v6 was an attempt to control costs.
Current F3 are one of the most 'aero' formula out there and there well relevant to everything up the tree and, as pointed out, sportscars.

Really there are two choices. Go to a cost effective class I.e. F Renault or its variants or introduce yet another mongrel class that is big and noisy as you've suggested.
To make it cost effective however it would invariably be crude and have no appeal or relevance to young fellas.
In is sense tat wouldn't matter except the class would be full of fat old blokes of dubious ability. Not really compelling viewing.

I wonder if the situation is Aus would be any different now if Toyota Australia had got behind the Toyota Racing Series around 06 - 07?

Not as much to learn but certainly much more affordable...

Not necessarily an increase in running costs with bigger engines - team owner at the time of the change told me that it cost way more to run a competitive F3 car for a season than a competitive F Holden. Make of that what you will but he was a smart, organised guy and I reckon he would have thought it all through and tracked it properly.

Toyota Australia definitely looked at TRS in 06 but had other priorities at the time and in reality didn't really have a motorsport focus. Star Mazda was also looked at around then but didn't come together for a range of reasons.

Open wheelers above FF level have always been hard in Oz - F5000 got the closest to REALLY appealing but really, it's been a struggle for open wheeled cars ever since touring cars got seriously strong in the late 60s / early 70s. A pommie friend of mine tells the story of going to Sandown fresh off the plane for a Tasman series round - the crowd were climbing fences, going right off when the touring cars were out but went off to cook their barbies, chat to their mates etc when the open wheelers came out which was weird to him from a euro background - this was early 70s.

Samwhk · 8 Apr 2013, 00:41 (Ref:3230652)

Quote:

Originally Posted by one five five

They need to put some spice back into it with a set of regulations that will appeal to Australia....the obvious answer surely is a set of regulations with engine regs the exact same as V8Supercars....

This. I think a series like that would have some great appeal in both Oz and NZ. We used to get coverage of FHolden over here, when I was but a wee lad, and apart from F1, it's been about the only open wheel series that I got into. There were names that were relevant to me, they sound good, looked good, and were entertaining to watch.

Surely there must be an existing chassis out there (I don't know much about them to be honest, but what happened to all the old GP2 chassis when they updated?) that it wouldn't be too hard to nail a V8SC engine into? There's 4 engine suppliers now, they'd sound better than any open wheelers short of F1, and would be lightening fast.