[WEC] Rebellion Racing

[Mr Pink]

Originally Posted by BRG

Lux posted on the kolles thread last summer


"So so sad that some of you will moan about a lack of LMP1 cars to compete with Rebellion and then when one comes along your all desperate for it to fail so that you can say "told you so". "

quite alot of people including mr pink used used this for further negitive remarks against Kollers.
Anyway I firmly believe rebellion we change both the engine and gearbox and prove they are worthy, Mabye they will be able to keep up with Kolles this year

My comment was "I don't think anyone want's them to fail, I know I'd love to see more privateers, but I think the scepticism is justified.". I don't find that overly negative and I was definitely happy that they managed to turn up to a few races.

[BRG]

Having reflected on what I said earlier.
Bart Haydon Rebellion's team leader, said that he believed the current regs would allow privateers to run within 2 seconds of the works teams at Le Mans.

It was immediately obvious at the beginning of the season that that would be difficult. The factory teams made massive leaps in performance and were reliable with it.

I know there were various discussions on these pages about how much power they had over lmp2, 50bhp or so and less torque.
By mid season people were saying the Toyota engine was not powerful enough. and also did not have enough capacity to make the most of the fuel flow breaks the ACO had given them.

So I would have thought Rebellion would have been looking for a new engine from mid to late season last year.

If Rebellion still believe in the 2 second gap, they will need to convince the ACO to let them have more fuel and a much higher flow rate then they most have an engine capable of running about 100 – 150bhp more than the hybrids i.e. 650 -700bhp and the only way to do this is with a NA engine of 5 or more litres or a turbo engine.

This is what I mean about being serious.
If they turn up with the 4.4l Judd v8 or the Audi dtm engine then their goal would be just to run.

I believe the news that says they may miss Silverstone is interesting.
If they go for a v8 i.e. Judd or Audi and still miss Silverstone then that would be poor as replacing a v8 with another v8 and same gearbox should not be that taxing.

I prefer to think they are integrating the v10 Judd or AER turbo with a new gearbox like Kolles are doing.
Lastly does anybody know more about the Cosworth engine I'm assuming they are talking about the 1.6 v6 f1 engine.


Edited by Ayse for oversized text.

[Félix]

The Cosworth F1 design has been picked up by a new P1 entry for this year. I don't know what would be available (maybe the XG design from almost a decade ago) but surely they couldn't get the same engine as a factory entrant...

Knighty, how light can a Vette engine be? The Panoz-Ford was 170kg, I think the Caldwell Hemi and the Lister LMP engine must have been at least as heavy. I'd be surprised if a stock block could be trimmed to 150kg; the Judds have been 115 to 135 kg and with some budget they could trim more and get close to 100kg like the Zyteks or their 1997 F1 engine.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Does that Katech motor run a cross plane crank? I would love to hear a bellowing V8 in the back of a P1.

Yes, they are crossplane.

[TF110]

Engine weight should be a small issue since they run without hybrid pieces. Hopefully they get a solid engine with power behind it.

[Félix]

They've been given breaks to run 800kg. Look at Kolles: they're 75kg overweight and I bet the AER is around 130kg. The Toyota was probably 110kg.

[BRG]

Originally Posted by Félix

They've been given breaks to run 800kg. Look at Kolles: they're 75kg overweight and I bet the AER is around 130kg. The Toyota was probably 110kg.

Both teams will strugle to make this weight as thier cars were designed for 900kg which is why i think they should concentrate on getting extra power and fuel breaks from the ACO.

[Félix]

Per Racecar Engineering July 2014, the car was designed around a 850kg minimum weight. They were lobbying for a break to "at least 800kg" and got it.

The Xtrac 1159 gearbox they're using is rated for 850nm. This is probably exactly what Kolles is fitting to their car.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Félix

They've been given breaks to run 800kg. Look at Kolles: they're 75kg overweight and I bet the AER is around 130kg. The Toyota was probably 110kg.

The Toyota weighs 120kg.

http://www.rebellion-racing.com/toyotarv8klm.html

[carbon_titanium]

AER engine is in the range of 3.5-4.0L + twin turbo, the weight should be not less than 150kg

[ger80]

I would love to know how the Audi R8 LMP FSI engine would do in the current regs

[TF110]

Bart Hayden says its decision on engines isnt related to Toyota's performance, but their discontinuation of supplying them. It seems like Toyota may offer another engine in the future, maybe based on the current GT500 2L turbo.

[Félix]

AER make light engines. http://www.mulsannescorner.com/aerturbolmp1v8.html Might have something to do with how difficult it has been to make their engines reliable. Still, they are installing them in Champ Cars now and that must be very exciting with a claimed 1,000 hp.

The 2014 RE article on Rebellion claimed +/- 115 kg and the TS030 unit is apparently close to 100 kg now. It probably varies depending on whether builders include the exhaust, inlet tract or fluids. BMW claimed they could have gone down to 68 kg with their F1 V8 if they hadn't had to comply with the rulebook's limitations.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

AER engine is in the range of 3.5-4.0L + twin turbo, the weight should be not less than 150kg

AER reckon it weighs 115kg.

http://www.aerltd.com/existing-products/

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by BRG

Both teams will strugle to make this weight as thier cars were designed for 900kg which is why i think they should concentrate on getting extra power and fuel breaks from the ACO.

Rebellion seems to have no major problem with it. It's Kolles's issue if they can't make the diet work.

I don't think ACO can continue handing them restrictor + whatever engine breaks forever thou, there comes the limit. Same with tank sizes, you'd need to start (equally) decreasing the factory tank capacities itself.

[BRG]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Rebellion seems to have no major problem with it. It's Kolles's issue if they can't make the diet work.

I don't think ACO can continue handing them restrictor + whatever engine breaks forever thou, there comes the limit. Same with tank sizes, you'd need to start (equally) decreasing the factory tank capacities itself.

Do you think the ACO are willing to give more bop breaks to get them closer to the works teams or was Bart Hayden’s wishes to run a few seconds behind the factory teams always a faulty assumption

[Deleted]

Yes... and yes

[MyNameIsNigel]

French magazine AutoHebdo reports that Rebellion Racing have ultimately opted to run with the AER engine and - unfortunately - would have to miss the first FIA-WEC round at Silverstone due to the necessary changes to the engine installation.

[Deleted]

Aww Judd V10 would've been so awesome - or HPD

With AER it means spec-rivalry between them and Kolles Gang. Guess they wanted 'safer' option

So many potential powerplants and no takers

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Aww Judd V10 would've been so awesome - or HPD

With AER it means spec-rivalry between them and Kolles Gang. Guess they wanted 'safer' option

So many potential powerplants and no takers

Or it means we can see who actually has a better car. I know it will be low on the list of interesting things in P1 this year, but when was the last time two privateers were battling in P1?

[chernaudi]

Well, them missing Silverstone as well as the WEC Prologue test weekend does show the disadvantage of Oreca designing the car. Meaning, the R-One isn't very suited to using a turbo engine without major modifications.

Even the Oreca LMP2 cars aren't very suited to turbocharged engines seeing as all of them have run NA V8s. Those are issues rooted in the Courage LC70s that they were derived from, and the R-One has design details derived from the older open cockpit Oreca and Courage LMP cars. And a lot of us remember how much Courage struggled with the AER turbo V8s in '07 and how Oreca ditched them in favor of Judd V10s for '08.

The Judd GV5 V10 or the Judd and Zytek 4.4-4.5 liter V8s would've been a safe choice and avoided the need for a major redesign (they could've used the same basic cooling layout as the 3.4 Toyota V8, which I believe is the major hang up with the AER turbo V6), but I think that Rebellion got burned on the small Toyota V8 and they feel that even with a 4.4 or 4.5 liter V8 that there'd still be a pretty big performance drop off with the fuel flow formula vs the older air restrictor formula.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by joeb

Or it means we can see who actually has a better car. I know it will be low on the list of interesting things in P1 this year, but when was the last time two privateers were battling in P1?

Rebellion vs Pickett

I think even with same engine the only way Kolles can have real fight against (#12) Rebellion is if the chassis is indeed fully free of the extra ballast like they claim, and if they don't recycle rent drivers in the car the usual CK style.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Rebellion vs Pickett

I think even with same engine the only way Kolles can have real fight against (#12) Rebellion is if the chassis is indeed fully free of the extra ballast like they claim, and if they don't recycle rent drivers in the car the usual CK style.

Or Pickett vs dyson for that matter!

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by joeb

Or Pickett vs dyson for that matter!

Yeah but you asked the last time there was competitive privateer battle, PLM 2013 with Rebellion against Pickett came after the last time Dyson had actual chance for victory with pro drivers. Ie VIR 2013

[knighty]

Rebellion-AER......great news, i really think they made the correct choice, sadly a bit too late, but I expect this will now be highly competitive, really they made a horrid choice designing the R1 around the old Toyota IRL engine, there is a part of me that suspects oreca intentionally bum-steered rebellion to keep them away from Toyota on the track, but they will never admit this......I can imagine Oreca contributed to such an awful choice, but who am I to say......anyway, best of luck Rebellion-AER B-)