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2 Feb 2016, 22:53 (Ref:3611058) | #676 | |||
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There's no way the top brass in France would've supported that nonsense. I do not see that episode as the manufacturers fault at all... |
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3 Feb 2016, 08:23 (Ref:3611160) | #677 | ||
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I understand what you're saying but wasn't it similar to the recent VW diesel emissions scandal? VW are adamant that this was caused by 'a few rogue engineers', but the event isn't referred to as 'The few rogue engineers' scandal, it's the mothership VW who are taking the flack. Renault (IMO) were in the same boat...
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Incognito: An Italian phrase meaning Nice Gearchange! |
4 Feb 2016, 09:18 (Ref:3611481) | #678 | |||
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4 Feb 2016, 18:39 (Ref:3611647) | #679 | ||
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When you have staff you expect they'll make you money and enhance your reputation but in exchange if they do the reverse you take it on the chin. |
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Some say I have grown old and cynical, they are wrong I have grown old but have always been cynical. |
8 Feb 2016, 12:02 (Ref:3613057) | #680 | ||
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I appreciate that this part of the Red Bull saga has almost been flogged to death, but another day goes by and yet another senior member of the team starts whining again. This time it's Adrain Newey ( http://www.pitpass.com/55461/Newey-fears-spending-war ) under the pretext of complaining that dropping the token system will lead to a spending war by the PU suppliers.
His real beef, though, is that he "fears" Renault won't spend the same sort of money that the likes of Mercedes will do, so the gap might grow greater. Then he brings up discussions that took place during 2012 and 2013 in the Strategy Group, where it was suggested that power units should be frozen but that teams behind would be allowed to keep developing. What absolute nonsense - I would really like to say something quite a bit stronger, but fear I might be put on the naughty step. Can anyone imagine what a row would have broken out if Red Bull had been stopped developing their cars, when they won 4 championships on the trot, until the other teams caught up and possibly usurped them? Some personnel in F1 have such tunnel vision, and seem to have completely lost touch with reality. |
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8 Feb 2016, 13:05 (Ref:3613070) | #681 | |||
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Incognito: An Italian phrase meaning Nice Gearchange! |
8 Feb 2016, 14:23 (Ref:3613084) | #682 | ||
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It pains to me say that I agree. (Not that you said it, but that it is is time that they either moved on or that they started to stop feeling sorry for themselves just because they are not winning anymore.)
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8 Feb 2016, 15:02 (Ref:3613090) | #683 | ||
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8 Feb 2016, 15:40 (Ref:3613098) | #684 | |||
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I have been giving RBR a hard time recently and agree with the sentiment in the posts directly above, but when I read that article I agree with some of what Newey is saying. I think in the short term more money will be spent. But is that a bad thing?
I suspect that teams like Renault, Honda and Ferrari have already been spending a lot of money to figure out how to solve the problem "within the current token system", which is a likely a costly way to engineer yourself out of the current situation. The lack of freedom means it is harder to fix known issue. I suspect each manufacture has learned a lot over the past few years about these engines, but can only do so much to implement improvements. Maybe the gates will burst open with solutions that they just couldn't previously implement and maybe already have somewhat paid for with respect to R&D? Quote from Newey from the article... Quote:
Another Newey quote... Quote:
One thing that is not mentioned that I think is a real possibility is that if the new tokenless system comes into play in... 2017 (or maybe 2018 ?) and given that Renault expects 2016 (and 2017?) to be rebuilding years with the rebuilding mostly on the F1 team side, I can imagine Renault saving their money and not pushing out significant changes via the current broken token system in 2016. Basically focus on the 2017 tokenless engine and for the most part write off the 2016 engine (maybe some minimal development that might already be in the works). Which could leave RBR in the dark for 2016. Notice that if anything, Newey actually says some nice things about Renault in that article (such as Renault has given them access to the primary or "full power" software package for the customer engines). RBR are still petulant, but maybe they are trying to re-court Renault (2017 and beyond?) in their own awkward way? On a related note, I am still curious if parts standardization is part of the lower cost PU for the customer teams. How is that (if at all) tied to the tokenless engine proposal? More parts standardisation should help close the gaps as well. Richard Last edited by Richard C; 8 Feb 2016 at 15:51. |
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8 Feb 2016, 15:58 (Ref:3613101) | #685 | ||
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in fairness, Newey does say some nice things in that article about Renault being the best engine supplier (because they offer the current spec software) so thats a bit different then the usual RB complaints.
despite the back and forth though, i feel like the new rule/no tokens and Renault's public commitment that it is prepared to spend a lot in F1 does make Newey's point a bit moot and also i think the door to Renault and RB extending their partnership is once again open...or at least on its way to opening up again. |
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8 Feb 2016, 16:03 (Ref:3613103) | #686 | |||
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we know Merc and Ferrari are prepared to spend. Honda are capable of spending and if Renault are willing to do the same then within a year or two we could have 4 engines all converging and that i think would be both stabilizing and make for better competition at the same time. i would like to see a full transcript of Newey's comments as i feel some of his quotes are old points he has made...im not convinced they were all made post the token change. pitpass is suspect imo |
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Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place |
8 Feb 2016, 16:19 (Ref:3613113) | #687 | ||
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The same is being reported on Motorsport dot com.
Underlying all his comments, though, is the thread that he is still carping on about the fact that the regulations have cut back on the advantages that he creates with his aerodynamics and other body modifications. His repeated mantra is that the winning cars only cross the line first because of the power units, whereas, unspoken, he believes that the competition should be derived via the bodywork. It's an old hymn, but he still keeps singing it! |
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13 Feb 2016, 17:20 (Ref:3614426) | #688 | ||
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What do we think Red Bull are going to do about engine supply after this year? Ferrari and Mercedes-Benz seem to be closed doors, so it looks like the options are sticking with Renault as a customer, trying to do a deal with Honda, or luring a new manufacturer into F1.
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14 Feb 2016, 16:47 (Ref:3614632) | #689 | ||
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The dieselgate episode has put a line through that for the forseeable future and now they are just a 'customer' team. If RBR had a manufacturer deal they would have no problem with a spending arms race on engines and would no doubt encourage it. Of course Newey wants to focus on aero, this is his forte.... |
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23 Feb 2016, 09:51 (Ref:3616976) | #690 | ||
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Early days but Riccairdo 3rd Fastest with plenty of laps under the belt. Better start then last year.
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Everyone knows blue cars are the fastest. |
23 Feb 2016, 11:17 (Ref:3616988) | #691 | ||
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http://www.racer.com/f1/item/126347-...-renault-power |
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23 Feb 2016, 12:07 (Ref:3616997) | #692 | ||
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Well at least it didn't break down like last year. Its a start I guess.
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Everyone knows blue cars are the fastest. |
23 Feb 2016, 16:07 (Ref:3617035) | #693 | |||
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But... The article has a few swipes at Renault with respect to comparison of the Renault to the Ferrari at STR. Richard |
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To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
12 Mar 2016, 15:23 (Ref:3622337) | #694 | ||
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Looks like Dietrich Mateschitz is at it again: "If we don't get a competitive engine after 2016 we have no choice but to consider our future."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/123226 |
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12 Mar 2016, 16:30 (Ref:3622349) | #695 | ||
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i cant say i blame him. its crazy to spend 300mil plus a year (plus whatever STR spends) in the first place but even crazier to do so knowing you cant get your hands on a competitive engine.
without rehashing much of what has already been discussed in this thread, my default position tends to favour the independent/non manufacturer teams so im more inclined to see this from RB point of view. that said RB have money so perhaps they have just failed to make an offer adequate enough to convince Merc or Ferrari to sell them one. |
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Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place |
12 Mar 2016, 18:32 (Ref:3622363) | #696 | ||
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Personally, I'm getting pretty fed up with their petulant "We're not getting our own way and unless we do we're not going to play anymore" attitude. They were more than happy when they were dominating the sport, but then seemed to get too big for their boots and slagged everyone off who they thought they could blame for their lack of form. It's no wonder that the engine suppliers don't want to deal with them!
Let's face it we'd have lost Williams & McLaren (for example) ages ago if they'd adopted the same attitude! |
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12 Mar 2016, 19:53 (Ref:3622375) | #697 | ||
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I'm with VIVA GT. Red Bull is entitled to pull out if it feels it's not getting a decent return on investment, but F1 doesn't owe the team a living. After it's relationship with Renault, I have every sympathy with Ferrari and Merc in saying "No, thanks".
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13 Mar 2016, 02:48 (Ref:3622422) | #698 | ||
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What a poor attitude by Mateschitz. How dare he not want to be an also-ran. Simply not the F1 spirit.
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ยินดีที่ได้รู้จัก |
13 Mar 2016, 04:04 (Ref:3622432) | #699 | |
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13 Mar 2016, 09:35 (Ref:3622461) | #700 | ||
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I have little sympathy for Mateschitz, IMO their position comes because of their aggressive stance against a partner who helped them to 4 titles. A partnership such as they enjoyed with Renault deserved better, deserved more help and encouragement, perhaps some extra investment to solve their partners problems.
I do feel sorry for the Red Bull staff who now must feel uncertain of their future |
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