[Team] McLaren - can they compete?

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

As I wrote earlier, it is not that simple. Both Dennis and Ojjeh have 25% shareholdings, and I believe at least 50% voting rights, and given the extremely close relationship between the two over so many decades, I think it highly unlikely that any other shareholder would be able to enforce a departure of Dennis if he doesn't wish to go.

That's the theory Mike but I heard something yesterday (from a mate who seems very well connected somehow) that apparently Ron did something last year that upset Mr Ojeh causing a fall out...

[wnut]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

That's the theory Mike but I heard something yesterday (from a mate who seems very well connected somehow) that apparently Ron did something last year that upset Mr Ojeh causing a fall out...

Money?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1...-amid-boardro/

"After nearly three years desperately trying to find the backing to buy out Ojjeh – who owns 25 per cent – and Bahrain’s sovereign wealth fund – which owns 50 per cent"

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

That's the theory Mike but I heard something yesterday (from a mate who seems very well connected somehow) that apparently Ron did something last year that upset Mr Ojeh causing a fall out...

I read that Ojjeh was upset that Ron had been trying to get backing to buy him out while he (Ojjeh) was recovering from a double lung transplant.

[Mike Harte]

There have been stories for years that Dennis was trying to fund a buyout of McLaren, just as there have been rumours that he was going to be pushed out. Neither has happened, yet!

With a group of companies such as McLaren, I feel fairly certain that there would be/have been little problem in raising money to fund a buyout, so I tend not to have much faith in the rumours.

[chillibowl]

was going to write a long post but didnt.

basic summary is that i hope RD stays (or wants to stay), or if not, he is replaced with someone who has something close to his level of passion for the team and sport.

not some new sovereign wealth fund or hedge fund appointee who wants to try their hand at being a team principle for a bit.

some articles are throwing Zak Brown's name around...cant say i know enough about him other than he has successfully linked a racing career with an ability to find sponsorship. a bit uninspired perhaps but 'ability to find money' is probably the mold they are looking for.

also its halloween soon...perhaps they can resurrect the corpse of Whitmarsh!

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

was going to write a long post but didnt.

basic summary is that i hope RD stays (or wants to stay), or if not, he is replaced with someone who has something close to his level of passion for the team and sport.

not some new sovereign wealth fund or hedge fund appointee who wants to try their hand at being a team principle for a bit.

some articles are throwing Zak Brown's name around...cant say i know enough about him other than he has successfully linked a racing career with an ability to find sponsorship. a bit uninspired perhaps but 'ability to find money' is probably the mold they are looking for.

also its halloween soon...perhaps they can resurrect the corpse of Whitmarsh!

There isn't much sponsorship money around for F1 these days though and any big money that is around is being hoovered up by BE who as the one who says where the branding goes and points the camera at it, can guarantee a level of coverage that a team simply can't.

Some say that allegedly Ron is rooted to a sponsorship model that is 20 years out of date as he is still on a fag money rate card, maybe that is some of the tension?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Some say that allegedly Ron is rooted to a sponsorship model that is 20 years out of date...

All we know is, He's called The Stig!

but yeah, his 'wait to become competitive again before signing a long term title sponsor so you can sell the space at a premium' is probably a multi million dollar a year source of contention.

[stripedcat]

Well, McLaren and Honda both have the pedigree for winning in F1. One thing that does concern me though, is that I don't think Honda is quite the company that it once was in F1(winning with BAR and Jordan - let alone with their amazing run with McLaren, Williams and Lotus in the 1980s).

Signs are more promising now. But, they is still a long way to go for them.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I don't see Honda buying up McLaren, or see why they would want to. They've had a big enough headache as it is sorting out the PU, so I don't think they would want the added complexity of owning a team and all that that would entail.

It's not been plain sailing for them across the pond. Since the introduction of the DW 12 and the return of Chevrolet, Honda have won the 500 three times but the Driver's Championship once and have yet to win the Manufacturer's Championship. It's engines and PUs they need to concentrate on, if they want to get back to where they used to be.

[Tja]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Saward is reporting that the Mclaren BP deal is definitely going to happen.

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2016...claren-and-bp/

he highlights connections between BP via Castrol and Honda as the logic behind the deal (and no doubt lots of money). how quickly can BP get up to speed and/or is this a step back for Mclaren?

not sure where that leaves ExxonMobil but in a previous post he suggested that they may move over to Red Bull.

German TV has just talked about this, confirming Castrol/BP to McLaren and ExxonMobil moving over to RedBull. I doubt we'll get an official confirmation from McLaren before the end of the season though. Is RedBull connected to another oil company at the moment? They lost Total when they dropped the Renault name IIRC?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Tja

German TV has just talked about this, confirming Castrol/BP to McLaren and ExxonMobil moving over to RedBull. I doubt we'll get an official confirmation from McLaren before the end of the season though. Is RedBull connected to another oil company at the moment? They lost Total when they dropped the Renault name IIRC?

Max Mexico 2016.

[Tja]

Originally Posted by wnut

Max Mexico 2016.

Ok thanks, It's on there quite a lot

[wolfhound]

McLaren have appointed Zak Brown as its new executive director but still have to appoint a new chairman.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mc...rector-852419/

So can we expect to see plenty of positive spin on McLaren in Autosport, F1 Racing and Motorsport.com then?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

McLaren have appointed Zak Brown as its new executive director but still have to appoint a new chairman.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mc...rector-852419/

So can we expect to see plenty of positive spin on McLaren in Autosport, F1 Racing and Motorsport.com then?

Here's Autosport's take on it.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/127214

[wolfhound]

Honda appear to be adopting a Mercedes type turbine/compressor arrangement for their new power unit.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ho...ressor-864024/

I wonder will that mean a major step forward in their performance time will tell.

[chillibowl]

so a further move away from RD and the size zero philosophy which the team and Honda have had many many problems with.

given that the design work must have been done many moths ago, i wonder if this new direction factors into any of the board room issues surrounding the team over the past year?

if it works does that put them them back in the mix or just equal to where Merc were in 2014 when the new engine formula started?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

so a further move away from RD and the size zero philosophy which the team and Honda have had many many problems with.

given that the design work must have been done many moths ago, i wonder if this new direction factors into any of the board room issues surrounding the team over the past year?

if it works does that put them them back in the mix or just equal to where Merc were in 2014 when the new engine formula started?

All good points.

I am of the opinion that the size zero concept was the root of the problems. I made the point months ago in a post that this is the benefit of an all in one team like Mercedes. That there is less of the customer/provider relationship. That pushback on bad ideas work better within a team atmosphere. I could be off the mark, but I can envision McLaren pushing Honda in the direction of the size zero design and that negatives of that solution could have been suppressed to maintain the happiness of the relationship.

Clearly the honeymoon phase is over and they know it didn't work. Time to face reality, come up with a new plan and then move forward. It hard to say how much the shakeup within McLaren is part of this. I suspect the shakeup within McLaren is just part of the aftermath of how things have been going.

Regardless, it sounds like they are more on-track now than before. Hopefully they will not be too far behind now.

Richard

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

All good points.

I am of the opinion that the size zero concept was the root of the problems. I made the point months ago in a post that this is the benefit of an all in one team like Mercedes. That there is less of the customer/provider relationship. That pushback on bad ideas work better within a team atmosphere. I could be off the mark, but I can envision McLaren pushing Honda in the direction of the size zero design and that negatives of that solution could have been suppressed to maintain the happiness of the relationship.

Clearly the honeymoon phase is over and they know it didn't work. Time to face reality, come up with a new plan and then move forward. It hard to say how much the shakeup within McLaren is part of this. I suspect the shakeup within McLaren is just part of the aftermath of how things have been going.

Regardless, it sounds like they are more on-track now than before. Hopefully they will not be too far behind now.

Richard

Do you think Mr Newey & his RBR design team are working at Size Zero?
Suspect that they are...

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Do you think Mr Newey & his RBR design team are working at Size Zero?
Suspect that they are...

Off hand I can't remember how Renault has their turbo setup, but I believe it was nothing as radical as Honda tried. So no.. they are probably not working with a "size zero" power unit. Remember, by definition Mercedes isn't either.

I also think RBR and Renault is a relationship at the other end of the spectrum. In that RBR likely pushed Renault as hard as anyone, but Renault was unable to respond (combo of maybe stubborn plus a token system that prevented quick change) .

If would be very interesting to see how things would work out if RBR where to try to develop their own engine. Would they push the engine design team around (and potentially into bad corners such as a size zero design), or would they be an equal partner with the aero team and be able to stand their ground when needed? We will likely never know.

Richard

[Mike Harte]

Peeps seem to have such short memories, or maybe elect to ignore past facts.

At the beginning of this new era, it was the Red Bulls that had the most problems with the Renault power-units, and it was pretty well acknowledged by all and sundry that a large proportion of their problems were attributed to the cramped space that Adrian Newey and his gang had left the Regie into which to stuff their unit.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

All good points.

I am of the opinion that the size zero concept was the root of the problems. I made the point months ago in a post that this is the benefit of an all in one team like Mercedes. That there is less of the customer/provider relationship. That pushback on bad ideas work better within a team atmosphere. I could be off the mark, but I can envision McLaren pushing Honda in the direction of the size zero design and that negatives of that solution could have been suppressed to maintain the happiness of the relationship.

Clearly the honeymoon phase is over and they know it didn't work. Time to face reality, come up with a new plan and then move forward. It hard to say how much the shakeup within McLaren is part of this. I suspect the shakeup within McLaren is just part of the aftermath of how things have been going.

Regardless, it sounds like they are more on-track now than before. Hopefully they will not be too far behind now.

Richard

Totally agree......dont forget McLaren ran the Mercedes engine in 2014, and they should be shot for not realizing the mercedes turbo packaging was a big powertrain benefit, but no, McLaren who know nothing about engines (this is why they need Ricardo on the road car side) pushed honda into the dopey axial flow exhaust turbine which had the efficiency of a an ant running a marathon, its easy to blame Honda, but it was actually Mclaren that pushed them to do it through the dopey size-zero packaging route for the best possible aerodynamics, for sure aero is important, but they just took it way too far and paid the price with 2 awful seasons in F1.......McLaren need to sort their own act out before they release press statements saying "we would have been the best with the best engine"......Mclaren made the bed, then need to sleep in it.

It would not surprise me to see the 2017 Mclaren-Honda package be an absolute flier......Honda will probably also have implemented Turbulent Jet Injection and also realize another significant performance gain, just like Renault and Ferrari did, after they realized Mercedes had it since 2014!

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

At the beginning of this new era, it was the Red Bulls that had the most problems with the Renault power-units, and it was pretty well acknowledged by all and sundry that a large proportion of their problems were attributed to the cramped space that Adrian Newey and his gang had left the Regie into which to stuff their unit.

though it must be said, with a handful of wins and a much better overall record compared to Mclaren, RB and Renault have done a much better job at making it work (and in a much faster time frame as well) without having to drop the tight rear/size zero packaging concept.

on the surface (and in hindsight) it does look like RB's very public tantrums and chastising of Renault has done more to push the team/partnership forward then the reserved/behind closed doors approach that Mclaren had taken (thinking back to one of the talking points in the 'whats wrong with RB' thread from a year ago)

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Peeps seem to have such short memories, or maybe elect to ignore past facts.

At the beginning of this new era, it was the Red Bulls that had the most problems with the Renault power-units, and it was pretty well acknowledged by all and sundry that a large proportion of their problems were attributed to the cramped space that Adrian Newey and his gang had left the Regie into which to stuff their unit.

If you are speaking of me, it is likely short memory. I do remember now problems with cooling due to pushing the limits with the Renault power unit. The question (for me) is did RBR drive the initial design of the Renault power unit (to make it smaller)? It could very well be the fact and I just can't remember the details.

Richard

[godlameroso]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

All good points.

I am of the opinion that the size zero concept was the root of the problems. I made the point months ago in a post that this is the benefit of an all in one team like Mercedes. That there is less of the customer/provider relationship. That pushback on bad ideas work better within a team atmosphere. I could be off the mark, but I can envision McLaren pushing Honda in the direction of the size zero design and that negatives of that solution could have been suppressed to maintain the happiness of the relationship.

Clearly the honeymoon phase is over and they know it didn't work. Time to face reality, come up with a new plan and then move forward. It hard to say how much the shakeup within McLaren is part of this. I suspect the shakeup within McLaren is just part of the aftermath of how things have been going.

Regardless, it sounds like they are more on-track now than before. Hopefully they will not be too far behind now.

Richard

Their main bottleneck was clearly the compressor. In 2015 they had problems with compressor stall, in 2016 they improved a lot, particularly in energy harvesting at the expense of some engine power. By Silverstone they had regained that power, and the Spa upgrade improved fuel efficiency.

They did not implement a TJI system like Ferrari. From what I've heard, the layout they pick will be "surprising", and to think of it as not so much revolutionary but "highly refined"

If I had to guess what that means is they either keep their current layout, or change the compressor and move it forward.

Implementing TJI would not have been feasible in 2016 because there were not enough tokens to implement all the supporting mods that are needed to make the concept work.

For 2017 they'll be making a very nice step forward, mostly in terms of a broader power band, and fuel efficiency. Will it be enough, that depends on Mclaren's chassis, the aero is good, but mechanical suspension is far behind Red Bull and Mercedes. Then again, since Monaco, it's believed McLaren abandoned developing the chassis for this year, and any upgrades were really just tests to determine the direction for next year.

The slotted end plates and front wing without the "outwash tunnel" were tests to determine drag with these concepts.

I'll be disappointed if they're not at least 4th fastest. And be pleasantly surprised if they can get on the podium. Getting on the podium and then challenging in 2018 for something serious.

[godlameroso]

Originally Posted by knighty

Totally agree......dont forget McLaren ran the Mercedes engine in 2014, and they should be shot for not realizing the mercedes turbo packaging was a big powertrain benefit, but no, McLaren who know nothing about engines (this is why they need Ricardo on the road car side) pushed honda into the dopey axial flow exhaust turbine which had the efficiency of a an ant running a marathon, its easy to blame Honda, but it was actually Mclaren that pushed them to do it through the dopey size-zero packaging route for the best possible aerodynamics, for sure aero is important, but they just took it way too far and paid the price with 2 awful seasons in F1.......McLaren need to sort their own act out before they release press statements saying "we would have been the best with the best engine"......Mclaren made the bed, then need to sleep in it.

It would not surprise me to see the 2017 Mclaren-Honda package be an absolute flier......Honda will probably also have implemented Turbulent Jet Injection and also realize another significant performance gain, just like Renault and Ferrari did, after they realized Mercedes had it since 2014!

The mixed axial centrifugal compressor is very compact and efficient, and if they had a little more space to make it the size they want(could just be better intake packaging) it could deliver enough boost pressure. Their harvesting is already at a good level, the next step is implementing their version of TJI/CVCC or whatever they're doing, but Honda likes doing things their own way, so they could be doing something completely different.