GT3 v's Supercar v's SuperTouring v's TCR - The Ultimate Thread

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by bludvl_x19

It means as long as the cars are close, and make the right noises, Av. Joe Punter isn't going to notice that the cars are slow.

Here's an example. How much faster than V8 utes are the Stadium Trucks? And how many people flock to the fences to watch the Trucks?

The trucks are loud, look fast and are close when they race. The utes are loud, look fast and are close when they race. Does that help explain it?


As a follow up, seeing as you have plenty of opinion as to what won't work; what do you see as the saviour of all that burns hydrocarbons and attracts people to the trackside?

Im sorry, the moment you try and drag Stadium trucks into the argument and dont mention they jump through the air as key difference then you have forfeited the argument

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by one five five

Yep, ok

Last time I checked the Shootouts were qualifying, and what about all the other tracks in 1993 compared to 1992?

Only two rounds? Indycar race on quite a few of the same tracks as NASCAR, and are quicker on all of them, yet they only out-spectator the NASCAR's at one track, Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

Fans will happily accept a ten-second a lap difference if they are being told its the same series with the same drivers & teams competing in the Clipsal 500, Townsville 400, Sandown 500, Bathurst, Darwin Triple Crown etc etc...

93 was quicker, i gave the times

your point was fans accepted a slowing down between 92 and 93, the numbers i have provided show there was not slowing down, at least at bathurst, knock yourself out on other tracks. It was not 10 seconds at any point and was still faster in 1993 than what Gt4 or TCR will do.

They majority wont accept it, some will, but no one wants to go back 30 plus years. there has to be better options or the series is dead

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Is the current "close racing" really what we want?
I would suggest that it is part of the problem rathewr than part of the solution.
Watching Darwin on the box at weekend and there was certainly no shortage of close racing. THe parity police have got it absolutely right with a minimal DIFFERENCE IN PERFORMANCE over the entire field. There were small differences in driver ability, tyre strategy and car set up, but as one of those millennials we are talking about said to me before going back to his screen:
"Looks like Bundall Rd speeded up a bit, but all the cars are the same, just different paint jobs and stickers".
Somehow we need to get away from this constant SAMENESS both in cars and levels of performance.
Over the years the high points of spectating or TV watching have been watching DIFFERENT cars compete with each other. FJ Holden v Mk2 Jag, Cortina v Studebaker Lark Mustang v Mini LJ XU1 v GT Falcon and so on. Motor racing is not attracting a new audience because there is no variety, either within the top classes or across the program of races.
THe challenge is not just to find a new breed of tin top but to find a whole new range of race cars.
Pecky, given variety, spectacle and something that the fan can call new the existing ones will have new enthusiasm and a whole range of new ones will emerge to replace us old farts as we getpast it.

I hope you are right. There needs to be something or its dead. But its needs to be speed wise similar to what we have, some form of improved production is needed, but i cant see anything in the offering. Can we steroid up a TCR.

Me im all for improved hot hatch racing, but i know i have friends who would turn off.

However im not sure we can attract the millennials, maybe there kids are the hope. Pod racing

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by peckstar

you are right, It wasnt a full paragraph, My error. Thank you for coming to his aid, he needs your protection. Maybe you can come to my protection when people quote me out of context like DRT managed to do

Do we need manufacturer interest? or do we just need a manufacturer to allow their shape to be used?

You would notice there have been plenty of times I don't agree with what Mr DRT writes if you go back through previous posts. He doesn't need my support, just staying true to the moto next to by Avatar.

Believe it is the approval with respect to manufacturers, but almost as hard to get as manufacturer interest itself it seems

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

Believe it is the approval with respect to manufacturers, but almost as hard to get as manufacturer interest itself it seems

you may very well be right on that one

Not sure what the answers are, have some ideas what they are not.

the poll on speedcafe concerns me as 60% dont want v6 turbos, maybe they will come around if they get to see it in action, time will tell i guess.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by peckstar

I hope you are right. There needs to be something or its dead.
However im not sure we can attract the millennials, maybe there kids are the hope. Pod racing

Some of the ones I know are already racing drones!

I still think the answer is mixed programs. And we could get some ideas from the past.

An race Tasman type series Nov-Jan for F5000 with Hot hatches or TCR providing support.

GT3 series Feb to June to include B12 and Clipsal as endurance races supported by Whatever replaces Gen3

Gen 3 main series July to october including B1000 & GC500 supported by hot hatches, or F5000 on circuits they would be OK for.

Production touring run occasionally as support events through the year culminating in the B6hr at Easter.

Certainly it would spread the money around and only a few superstrars would compete across classes, but they would become superstars.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by peckstar

seriusly dude, straw clutching, that was shoot out for a start and then you rounded down the 1992 time by nearly a whole second (0.898) to get your number, why would you mislead like that

1992 qualifying was mark skaife 2.13.82 (top ten was bowe 2.12.898)
1993 qualifying was Larry 2.12.86 (top ten was larry 2.13.013

Umm, DJ set the pole winning lap in '92.

Why would you mislead by stating the wrong driver?

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Im sorry, the moment you try and drag Stadium trucks into the argument and dont mention they jump through the air as key difference then you have forfeited the argument

Nice attempt at avoiding the question. Care to try again?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by chavez

Umm, DJ set the pole winning lap in '92.

Why would you mislead by stating the wrong driver?

made an error, sorry. Same car, same time

93 was still quicker

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by bludvl_x19

Nice attempt at avoiding the question. Care to try again?

i didnt avoid anything, it was stupid comparison and off topic. enterainment category, they stop half way so the everyone can catch up and then they race again. Its enjoyable to watch. the crowd enjoy burnouts also, or a drag car going up the straight

But if thats what you want racing to be, then good luck to you

[one five five]

Originally Posted by peckstar

They majority wont accept it, some will, but no one wants to go back 30 plus years. there has to be better options or the series is dead

The majority don't compare laptimes

If the racing is good, the fans will keep coming

I'm not sure why you are so doom and gloom over this, the sky won't fall if laptimes are slower

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by one five five

The majority don't compare laptimes

If the racing is good, the fans will keep coming

I'm not sure why you are so doom and gloom over this, the sky won't fall if laptimes are slower

Well i think they do. they stood as one in 2003 for murphy, they all knew the time, Now your suggesting they should be happy with a time ten seconds slower than that, Dreaming.

lap times have no affect on the sky, but racing will cess to be mainstream, I knwo this because plenty of posters have told me this on here (just suddenly they have changed in this thread) Read the superutes thread if you need some help as a starting point

[one five five]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Well i think they do. they stood as one in 2003 for murphy, they all knew the time, Now your suggesting they should be happy with a time ten seconds slower than that, Dreaming.

They stood and applauded because Murphy outqualified the next car by something like one and a half seconds

In a race, if there is a good racing, the majority of fans are not studying whether a car is doing 2m06s or 2m16s, they are at most noticing which cars are making up ground or losing ground each lap, the laptime itself is irrelevant.

It sounds like you are the one that will lose interest if the cars are slower.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Well i think they do. they stood as one in 2003 for murphy, they all knew the time, Now your suggesting they should be happy with a time ten seconds slower than that, Dreaming.

Didnt they go slower 2004, 2005, 2006 etc. No one stopped turning up or following the sport

[Ospi]

There's a difference between a few seconds here and there due to various factors and 10+ sec due to completely different hardware though. I think it's naive to believe the fans would ignore that aspect.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by GeoffR

the traditional Holden vs Ford fight, which has now been pretty much extinguished with the exit of both manufacturers from the local scene. Sure they will have imported models seeking to fulfill the role of the previous Commodore and Falcon models but without a V8 engine it won't be the same.

But Ford Australia do not want to race in Supercars, as far as they are concerned it gives a bogan image that they want to distance themselves from.

Holden and Nissan support are not guaranteed either, the latter seems to be based on personal relationships than hard results and worthwhile ROI.

Whereas Audi and Mercedes go out of their way to associate themselves with the techy, sophisticated image of TCR, GT3 and Formula 1.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by GeoffR

Their cheap Hyundai/Kia/Toyota is solely a means to commute to Uni and back!

If you hadn't noticed Kia and Hyundai are now full of Germans who are charged with churning out new performance models and running motorsport programs.

While under Toyoda-san's leadership toyota are becoming more sporty and gettng involved in more motorsports. For the first time, even the Prius has been given IRS and apparently it now has fairly sporty handling a bit like a mazda or alfa!

[Woolley]

I've seen some fantastic racing with Citroen 2CVs. If the racing is good, the overall speed doesn't matter.

Other than they'd take a long time to come round again at Bathurst...

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

So... Let's just use GT3 cars, they have heaps of downforce and are by far the fastest option?

Except... They are becoming eye-wateringly expensive to buy and repair, and there is no broad-based manufacturer support, like you could _claim_ TCR has.

[RedZedMikey]

The way I see it, long term, the first question to answer is what do VASC want, and what do the teams that are currently invested in VASC want? First and foremost, do they want to continue in the current mode of building cars up from scratch, or do they want to buy customer cars? What rules and control parts could VASC set in place if going down the build-our-own path

If they do want to build their own, that pretty much rules out "pure" GT3 and "pure" TCR, as both utilise customer cars manufactured almost entirely in Europe. In my opinion GT3/GT4 should not be in the VASC picture anyway as the evolution has always been down the touring car path. Let sports/GT cars continue in their own right.

Also, if building our own, Oz Touring Cars via VASC have pretty much been independent of the rest of the world since group A finished. So why not continue down that path? 2 doors or 4 doors should not be an issue - it should be more about interior space and/or wheelbase. Set those limitations, and the vehicles then define themselves. Manufacturer involvement? I don't know; did MARC require approval from Ford and Mazda before going down their path? Power and engine type? That's a big issue, with various paths that could be followed. Then there's control parts - reduce them, or leave as they are? BoP, parity, or neither?

It's not going to be an easy jigsaw to put together.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by RedZedMikey

It's not going to be an easy jigsaw to put together.

I agree with your summary RZM.

The important other factor though is that they have to look over their shoulder at what the fan base wants. And that in particular should include the fans that are NOT watching now, both at the track and on screens.

Certainly OZ fans have always liked top have a distinctively local content in engineering as being either dominant, or at least challenging the imports. Does that apply to the young people who are currently ignoring Motor Racing.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by RedZedMikey

Also, if building our own, Oz Touring Cars via VASC have pretty much been independent of the rest of the world since group A finished. So why not continue down that path? 2 doors or 4 doors should not be an issue - it should be more about interior space and/or wheelbase. Set those limitations, and the vehicles then define themselves. Manufacturer involvement? I don't know; did MARC require approval from Ford and Mazda before going down their path? Power and engine type? That's a big issue, with various paths that could be followed. Then there's control parts - reduce them, or leave as they are? BoP, parity, or neither?

MARC has proven you can make something look good and race fast, and still have some showroom look to it, but we're still talking a $250k car to build, right?

Maintenance costs are lower, but if we want a sustainable series without million dollar manufacturer involvement, we need to think about how to put on the same sort of show without the huge spend.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by Mixer

MARC has proven you can make something look good and race fast, and still have some showroom look to it, but we're still talking a $250k car to build, right?

Maintenance costs are lower, but if we want a sustainable series without million dollar manufacturer involvement, we need to think about how to put on the same sort of show without the huge spend.

TA2

http://ta2racingaustralia.com/

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by chavez

TA2

In the style of the successful South American series, still not sure I'm a fan.

I mean they are great aggressive looking cars but even more "silhouette" than current Supercars.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Mixer

In the style of the successful South American series, still not sure I'm a fan.

I mean they are great aggressive looking cars but even more "silhouette" than current Supercars.

You would think the current supercars format as a mustang would be easier to achieve