IMSA: USCR 2018

[Kimi7]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Only way right now a split will make sense is only if DPI gets a make over into being IMSA's version of LMP1 privateer as far as performance, and/or they get a massive amount of LMP2 pro-am teams. Even JDC is a borderline all pro team in reality based on both drivers performance being equal to each other.

The reality is that in prototype you have a group of drivers who are factory LMP1 caliber or at least somewhat close, nearly every car has at least one now. Dalziel, Derani, Cameron, Barbosa, both taylors, Simpson, Renger, Bomarito

then many of the cars have a driver who is very good but not at that level, who starts the races. You see the desparity in the lap times Derani, cameron, dalziel, etc. do compared to their co drivers at times. A high level "am" like Goikhberg who is maybe .5 seconds off his co driver is sufficient to compete at this level and not giving up much if anything to some of the other guys. Because of IMSA full-course yellows and such, you can often be competitive without 2 Cameron's or Derani's. If the protoype field grows and there become more competitive cars, mazda gets better, ESM more reliable, etc. ... track position will be more important and then throwing cameron in at the end to win will be less effective. Not trying to diminish curran but at CTMP there was clearly a big difference in speed between them, so i use it as an example, maybe its not as big of a difference other places.

However, with grids likely in the 12-15 range next year and the quality likely to be as good as its ever been, you can't probably be regularly competitive with "gentleman" drivers.(the Mike Shank model of the past as an example likely wont work as well as it did with DPs or a few years ago.) LMP2 cars are too physical and difficult to drive for that long, and it is very easy to make mistakes or look foolish if you are off the pace.

Out of the 28 or so drivers at watkins glen in prototype, maybe three were paying, and zero were paying ams over the age of 35.

[chernaudi]

PR1's car has been a pro-am driver line up most of this year aside from getting Pla in for the endurance races. I'd argue that if there were enough pro-am teams running ACO spec LMP2 cars (like the WEC model of having at least one Silver rated driver or lesser rank on the team), it would be worth it.

But that would have knock on effects. Would IMSA have to speed the DPIs up, since they can't BOP the LMP2s to be any different than current ACO specs? And also what of all pro LMP2s, which JDC do have a borderline all pro line up right now for example?

Keeping stuff as is is worth it for DPI teams and LMP2 teams with all pro driver line ups or silver drivers who are as fast as the pros out there. LMPC has outlived it's usefulness, though IMSA has no direct successor in the works for the foreseeable future.

If there were enough pro-am LMP2 teams, or enough of both pro-am LMP2 teams and enough all pro teams who want a DPI, then I'd say split them. But the present reality is that things are OK as they are. It took IMSA three years to get to the point of where things are now. Could things be better, like there not being a 7 race win streak by Cadillac teams? Yes, but even that's better than how the season started, and better than '14 to '16. Which, the last two race wins for Cadillac were kinda luck enhanced. They didn't get a free ride at WG or Mosport compared to Daytona or Sebring.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Prototype class is awesome. It doesn't need changed.

Originally Posted by Damian Baldi

I don't like the idea of a split. First because it creates confusion and is more difficult to sell to the public. Second because the next step would be allow changes in the cars (I mean in the PRO class), and if that door would open, there will be two new problems, rising costs and the lost of full compatibility with the WEC P2.

It should remain as is, race after race the cars are more equal, and it is just a question of team management and to have good drivers.

I agree that the P class is just fine as it is set up and is coming to a homogeneous point.






L.P.

[TF110]

If they do split, what's stopping the p2's from winning besides a slow driver? If IMSA gets enough DPi entries, it's going to be a hard pill to swallow for manufacturers to be beaten by private teams running 'regular' prototypes. That's how I feel at least. It may not happen in the next year or two. But if the class grows anymore, I think it will be an issue that manufacturers might bring up. Either way, I don't care. As long as there's more entries.

[FormulaFox]

The classes should only split if enough P2s join the grid to make them a viable standalone class - as I always say, you need at least 5 for that in a series like this.

As for whether or not to keep the performance level between DPi and LMP2, I feel that if the classes get split then DPi should have all BoP dropped and be a case of let the best car win. We might lose Mazda under such conditions, but with HPD coming in if all other entries stay unchanged DPi would still have a decent field.

After all, if EITHER class's entries drop too low, they can just go back to how it is now.

[chernaudi]

As it is, DPI/LMP2 is coming into it's own. No need for a split in the immediate future. If there's a huge growth in LMP2 pro-am teams, or DPI dominates, then it might be time for that to be revisited. Due to numbers and performance, it's hard to argue that splitting right now won't really work.

As I mentioned, the split would have other knock on effects. It wouldn't make sense for there to be two classes that the only major difference is mandated pro am drivers in one. Other things would have to happen, none of which I believe are likely to happen overnight. Only reason why GTE Pro and GTE Am work in the WEC is other than driver line ups, the GTE Am cars are basically frozen to being at least a year older than the Pro cars are in terms of specs, for example.

Those few on the ground who want to see such a change now have their own motives for it, and right now, those motives aren't enough to justify a split class.

[Damian Baldi]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

My only spot of bother/confusion is the allowance of DPI teams to make performance upgrades outside of BOP, especially when BOP is supposed to make the field roughly balanced. IMO, that's stupid, but there's gotta be a reason why IMSA's going that route.

Well, that's a consequence of the current annual homologation model at IMSA. Only Cadillac made the things right, while Nissan and Mazda arrived too late, or with few amount of testing, both are suffering of cooling issues on engine and brakes respectively. If they don't get allowed to upgrade de cooling systems, the series have two important teams out of the competition most of the time, but if they allow updates, it will create a conflic with Cadillac.

Riley is in another situation. They need to revise the entire car, weight, cooling and even reliability. If they don't bring an updated car for his/their clients for next year, that car will end his live this year.

It's the same we saw with the aero kit for Le Mans. Ligier and Dallara got it wrong, and they hasn't been allowed to use an update until next year (and for four years since then).

Originally Posted by Kimi7

then many of the cars have a driver who is very good but not at that level, who starts the races. You see the desparity in the lap times Derani, cameron, dalziel, etc. do compared to their co drivers at times. A high level "am" like Goikhberg who is maybe .5 seconds off his co driver is sufficient to compete at this level and not giving up much if anything to some of the other guys. Because of IMSA full-course yellows and such, you can often be competitive without 2 Cameron's or Derani's. If the protoype field grows and there become more competitive cars, mazda gets better, ESM more reliable, etc. ... track position will be more important and then throwing cameron in at the end to win will be less effective. Not trying to diminish curran but at CTMP there was clearly a big difference in speed between them, so i use it as an example, maybe its not as big of a difference other places.

I totally agree with those comments


About the split, another thing to pay attention, is if the ACO is forced to apply some kind of BoP to the P2 cars because the pressure of Am drivers. It has been very hard at Le Mans for them.

[chernaudi]

BOP'ing the LMP2s cars kinda doesn't make sense unless they want to take cornering speeds out of them. The power hike to about 600bhp (similar to what LMP1s make on engine power minus hybrid systems) was to make overtaking GT cars easier down the straights.

One thing that has to be remembered with the IMSA spec DPI and LMP2 cars is that the Continental tires offer far less grip than the Michelin or Dunlop LMP2 tires. Hence, especially in slow corners, DPIs and LMP2s in IMSA don't have really any more cornering speed than GTLMs or GTDs do, but that does kinds force the passes to happen on the straights, where the DPIs and even LMP2s have much more power and much more speed.

Maybe if the ACO elect to get the LMP2s to run to LMP1 factory team diffuser rules that could solve that problem, but what of rules stability and the ACO's own rules on LMP2 upgrades? I could also see an air restrictor size reduction, but that could have a knock on effect on DPI and kinda goes against the reason for the power increase in the first place.

[carbsmith]

The entire FIA/ACO Pro-Am model needs to be changed anyways. It sort of works in GT3 where you have Pro/Pro, Pro/Am, and Am/Am categories running the same cars but it's a joke in all ELMS, WEC, and IMSA where you have Pro/Am locked car classes and factory "amateur" drivers. At some point it has to break.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

The entire FIA/ACO Pro-Am model needs to be changed anyways. It sort of works in GT3 where you have Pro/Pro, Pro/Am, and Am/Am categories running the same cars but it's a joke in all ELMS, WEC, and IMSA where you have Pro/Am locked car classes and factory "amateur" drivers. At some point it has to break.

Do you have any examples of these drivers in ELMS and WEC?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by TF110

If they do split, what's stopping the p2's from winning besides a slow driver? If IMSA gets enough DPi entries, it's going to be a hard pill to swallow for manufacturers to be beaten by private teams running 'regular' prototypes. That's how I feel at least. It may not happen in the next year or two. But if the class grows anymore, I think it will be an issue that manufacturers might bring up. Either way, I don't care. As long as there's more entries.

It's happened in the past, it's racing.

[Kimi7]

This is purely for fun but heres my opinion on the top 9 full-time prototype drivers and why I rate them where I do. There are essentially 9 real full-time teams, so 18 total drivers. Interestingly only one team has two who are in the top 9, the 10 car. Only one team has 2 who are not in the top 9, one of the Mazdas. This is not a rip on anyone, just interesting when you consider the success of the 10 car, and maybe this is part of it.

1. Derani - Consisently outperforms anyone else in the car, excellent under pressure, with overtaking, and never makes any mistakes.
2. Cameron - Big desparity between teammate typically, does heroic 3 hour stints in the car without any drop off, generally makes very few mistakes(although can and did make one big one earlier this year which is why I put him a tad lower) This might be a tad unfair becuase he's probably asked to do more than anyone else on this list.
3. Van DerZande - Extremely quick in anything, making the Riley look more respectable at times than it should, talent always shines in the rain or mixed conditions
4. Jordan Taylor - Clearly very fast, Taylor brothers are making AXR look second rate this year in the same car, makes unnecesarry mistakes on rare occations like CTMP
5. Simpson - Makes zero mistakes, doing a lot with less, fast and consistent, good at overtaking. (people dont know how good Simpson is or his background, at one point he was an open wheel ace getting podiums in A1GP), super mature driver now
6. Ricky Taylor - very fast, taylor brother making AXR look second rate in the same car, makes unnecesarry mistakes that others on this list do not(Detroit quali) which is the only real knock on him
7. Bomaritto - Pulling speed out of the Mazda that others cannot, super consistent, zero mistakes, fast in anything he drives(open wheel, GTLM, Proto), could be higher on this list
8. Dalziel - Fast and consistent, zero mistakes, probably less truly standout performances than some of the guys at the top
9. Barbosa - Fast and consistent, super aggressive and typically comes out on top in a fight, could be higher on this list

I consider all these guys to be excellent and any can be faster than another on a given day. Guys like Derani and Cameron maybe just more consistently stand out.

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by Kimi7

This is purely for fun but heres my opinion on the top 9 full-time prototype drivers and why I rate them where I do. There are essentially 9 real full-time teams, so 18 total drivers. Interestingly only one team has two who are in the top 9, the 10 car. Only one team has 2 who are not in the top 9, one of the Mazdas. This is not a rip on anyone, just interesting when you consider the success of the 10 car, and maybe this is part of it.

1. Derani - Consisently outperforms anyone else in the car, excellent under pressure, with overtaking, and never makes any mistakes.
2. Cameron - Big desparity between teammate typically, does heroic 3 hour stints in the car without any drop off, generally makes very few mistakes(although can and did make one big one earlier this year which is why I put him a tad lower) This might be a tad unfair becuase he's probably asked to do more than anyone else on this list.
3. Van DerZande - Extremely quick in anything, making the Riley look more respectable at times than it should, talent always shines in the rain or mixed conditions
4. Jordan Taylor - Clearly very fast, Taylor brothers are making AXR look second rate this year in the same car, makes unnecesarry mistakes on rare occations like CTMP
5. Simpson - Makes zero mistakes, doing a lot with less, fast and consistent, good at overtaking. (people dont know how good Simpson is or his background, at one point he was an open wheel ace getting podiums in A1GP), super mature driver now
6. Ricky Taylor - very fast, taylor brother making AXR look second rate in the same car, makes unnecesarry mistakes that others on this list do not(Detroit quali) which is the only real knock on him
7. Bomaritto - Pulling speed out of the Mazda that others cannot, super consistent, zero mistakes, fast in anything he drives(open wheel, GTLM, Proto), could be higher on this list
8. Dalziel - Fast and consistent, zero mistakes, probably less truly standout performances than some of the guys at the top
9. Barbosa - Fast and consistent, super aggressive and typically comes out on top in a fight, could be higher on this list

I consider all these guys to be excellent and any can be faster than another on a given day. Guys like Derani and Cameron maybe just more consistently stand out.

Nice list. Only in prototype you could probably do that. I think making a list for GTLM would be harder to do with all the drivers in that class being world class more or less. GTD is tough to list as well with all the sneaky silvers in there messing things up.

I would move Barbosa off that list though. He does not seem to have it in the new DPI. I think Action Express should consider replacing him. Christain Fittipaldi is probably safe though. Eric Curran will stay as he brings in the Whelan sponsorship.

With that said, you'll need a new list in a few months because you'll have to start taking into account Penske's drivers!

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Do you have any examples of these drivers in ELMS and WEC?

When Aston Martin was running factory Am cars that even beat the Pro class once or twice obviously, as well as many races where Nissan has put their Academy drivers in rides. Then you have stuff like Alpine hiring single seater drop outs as "amateurs".

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

When Aston Martin was running factory Am cars that even beat the Pro class once or twice obviously, as well as many races where Nissan has put their Academy drivers in rides. Then you have stuff like Alpine hiring single seater drop outs as "amateurs".

The word amateur is certainly up for debate, but I can't think of any factory driver that's been classified as an Am.

Maybe the problem here is actually using the word amateur. Technically, by dictionary, Rusinov is an amateur as he doesn't get paid for driving. But the Am rules are all about driver ratings, not what a word means. Maybe the whole Am argument goes away if you just start saying Silver instead of Am.

[chernaudi]

Who knows what drivers will be coming into DPI, since we don't know yet officially who Penske and HPD have selected. And if Joest comes in as has been rumored, who will he bring? Probably some of the Audi factory drivers who don't have full time rides anywhere. Though the Joest deal does remain to be seen if that will happen.

Just because Joest is looking at DPI and reportedly Audi Sport and Lamborghini are, doesn't mean it'll materialize. And I have yet to see the strength of the rumors that we've seen with the Penske/HPD deal.

[Mike Hedlund]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The word amateur is certainly up for debate, but I can't think of any factory driver that's been classified as an Am.

Earl Bamber was when he drove at Petit Le Mans. The rating system is horse crap and anyone who uses it to imply somebodies speed or talent is simply wrong.

-mike

[chernaudi]

Don't IMSA and the ACO/FIA interpret the rating system differently? I remember that IMSA do different stuff with the ratings than the ACO do.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Mike Hedlund

Earl Bamber was when he drove at Petit Le Mans. The rating system is horse crap and anyone who uses it to imply somebodies speed or talent is simply wrong.

-mike

Yeah, I suppose that does fit, but Earl was driving for a factory team in a factory class so it didn't really matter. I can't think of any factory drivers running in an Pro/Am or Am class.

I think everyone agrees the rating system is crap. I've never read any proposed solution that's better though. I'm undecided if leaving it unregulated is better, or if a bad solution is better than no solution. Don't know.

I'm also surprised how many series run it. Is IMSA actually required to adopt the rating system? I don't see why it is.

[chernaudi]

I don't think that they're required to by the ACO or FIA, but I think they did so because it was simpler than making their own system and mandates totally from scratch.

[Matt]

Scrap the whole system completely and revert to how it was for many many years.

[Mike Hedlund]

IMSA uses the FIA ratings verbatim so they don't have to take any responsibility for them.

-mike

[chernaudi]

So basically let all pro teams dominate in every class, like it was in say the ALMS in 2008? We also need to also look at how Grand Am did things to encourage gentleman/pro-am driver participation (ie, cars with reduced cornering speeds, less aero and mechanical grip, etc).

Mind you, I'm not necessarily in favor of outright all pro vs pro-am classes (by that I mean split pro and pro am classes), but the pro-am drivers and teams want to be able to compete for wins, be it in combined or separate classes. In Grand Am, it used to be that you'd start the pro-am driver, catch a yellow as soon as he does his time to score points and put the pro in for the rest of the race.

In ALMS, each class had at least one pro-am line up, but they usually got pushed aside by all the all pro, often factory backed or factory supported teams.

As I've said before, money does make the racing world go around, and if you don't have series owners or promoters dumping it in, or factory teams/OEMs, what else is there, especially if there's not much corporate sponsorship to be had? If pro-am and gentleman drivers won't pony up the cash, a lot of the grid in IMSA and the WEC wouldn't be there.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by Mike Hedlund

IMSA uses the FIA ratings verbatim so they don't have to take any responsibility for them.

-mike

Not that the ACO/FIA have taken responsibility for them themselves, judging by the attitudes on this board and comments by several true gentleman drivers.

Mind you the readers, just because it's not a guy's regular job doesn't mean he can't be good at it. There's been plenty of am drivers who have proven to be as good as a lot of pros are, and sometimes, better than quite a few professionals.

But the questioning/distention is that a lot of teams in the pro-am classes are breaking the spirit of the rules by employing guys who are platinum or gold rated drivers by accomplishment but aren't due to age (example being Scott Pruett, who if age is discounted would be considered a platinum driver based on accomplishments), or using young rookie drivers who haven't advanced far enough up on a ladder system to be considered a gold or platinum driver. But by the letter of the rules, a rookie driver can be a silver if they don't exactly match up on gold or platinum criteria, and you can be a silver because you're an older guy who got demoted from platinum or gold rankings based on age.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Matt

It's happened in the past, it's racing.

Ok. Doesn't refute my point. The same thing with lmp1 and private teams. The big boys put in more money and time so they can win. I don't think IMSA and its prototype class are immune to that pressure from their key players. Far from it in fact.