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Old 1 Jul 2017, 15:51 (Ref:3748127)   #4966
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They're BoP'd down, so I imagine there's room for more power. Caddy especially. The Nissan isn't the engine from the ByKolles, but that has a lot of power to spare if the fuel regs were opened up. Mazda...well, you can't really build rules for car that blows up if the wind changes direction.

I don't really see the problem with the current IMSA Prototype class, and I really don't think it has been "screwed up". We'd all like new tyres, but that won't happen given the money Continental provides. And separating DPi and P2 at this stage is maybe a bit early. You'd end up with 2 small classes. We already have people complaining about GTE-Am and GTE-Pro being an "everybody wins" situation, but there's far more argument for those classes being split than DPi and P2, in terms of sustainable entries IMO.
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Old 1 Jul 2017, 17:02 (Ref:3748133)   #4967
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The DPIs were built to have P2 performance levels. Thus I am wondering how much more GM, Nissan, and mostly Mazda (and Honda & VAG too if those rumors are true) can get out of their current packages and how that compares to the speeds of the P1-Ps.
DPIs, especially the Cadillacs, and especially at the start of the season, would probably have been significantly faster than LMP2s on LMP2 spec tires, and were certainly faster than LMP2s on the IMSA spec Continental tires.

Each DPI team to one degree or another has been pegged back to try and approximate LMP2 performance levels, but the fact that the factory teams were allowed to develop their cars to be different then the LMP2s that they're based on, and are still it seems allowed to develop (ACO spec LMP2s have had their homolgation frozen, while DPIs have room for development right now as none have been fully homolgated even almost 6 months after the first race).

Also, DPIs and LMP2s are supposed to be making 600bhp out of their engines, but LMP1, LMP2 and DPI share the same basic chassis regulations under the ACO's and IMSA's technical regulations. Only the length is different between LMP1 and LMP2/DPI (4650mm vs 4750mm).

It should be easier with more open aero and some extra power to get DPIs and LMP1 privateer cars close on performance. And both can be done without anything like LMP1H budgets.
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Old 1 Jul 2017, 17:16 (Ref:3748137)   #4968
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They're BoP'd down, so I imagine there's room for more power. Caddy especially. The Nissan isn't the engine from the ByKolles, but that has a lot of power to spare if the fuel regs were opened up. Mazda...well, you can't really build rules for car that blows up if the wind changes direction.

I don't really see the problem with the current IMSA Prototype class, and I really don't think it has been "screwed up". We'd all like new tyres, but that won't happen given the money Continental provides. And separating DPi and P2 at this stage is maybe a bit early. You'd end up with 2 small classes. We already have people complaining about GTE-Am and GTE-Pro being an "everybody wins" situation, but there's far more argument for those classes being split than DPi and P2, in terms of sustainable entries IMO.
I've already been on tirades about how the ACO messed up LMP1 with the hybrid/ERS Incentive/fuel flow regs, so I'm not going to restate all of that here. But the fact is that on the DPI front, you have factory supported teams who clearly developed their own bodywork for their own advantage, not just to put road car styling cues on them. Even Audi did that with their LMP1 cars, and to a similar extent to the Cadillac DPI (headlight shape mostly).

Because they were developed independently from the LMP2 cars (who have their homologation frozen with the ACO and were designed around a single engine platform), the DPIs were always going to be faster, due to manufacturer investments, which involved powertrain (engine), aerodynamics (why would DPI teams make their own bodywork? Not just to suit IMSA wanting to have road car styling cues, as the changes on the Cadillac for example aren't exclusively just to create brand identity), and even to a degree almost all the DPI teams having an all pro driver lineup.

Just because an all-pro LMP2 car can keep up with the DPIs doesn't mean that's the way it should be without BOP. If there was no BOP, the DPIs would probably be miles ahead of even an all pro LMP2 car.

The problem there is how close would they'd be to a LMP1 privateer car? Since they won't race together at the same venue (Kolles won't even be at Austin), we can't judge, but when you consider how outdated Kolles' car is, they were still able to pass a Toyota on the first lap of LM this year, at least until Tetre Rouge.

Granted, you have two of the three ACO spec LMP2 teams in IMSA right now that are in favor of a separate DPI and LMP2 class. And one of those teams right now has the only all pro LMP2 driver line ups. And Troy Fils (Spirit of Daytona/Visit Florida Racing owner) feels it's unfair to have the DPIs shackled to being kept to roughly LMP2 specs. Either he's die hard about running LM with a ACO spec LMP2 at some point and doesn't want any IMSA influenced BOP, or he's moving to a DPI next year and wants more room for development and more speed out of the cars.
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Old 1 Jul 2017, 18:39 (Ref:3748160)   #4969
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I thought people didn't like having two small prototype classes, one of which has almost no competition whatsoever. Shows what I know.
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Old 1 Jul 2017, 19:21 (Ref:3748173)   #4970
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Fact is that if something like a more open form of DPI was allowed into the ACO's LMP1 privateer regs, it'd work and you'd have more entries. As mentioned, not every car maker who wants to have something to do with LMP1 wants to spend Toyota's $80-100 million, let alone Porsche's $200 million, or run hybrid systems. Not to mention that LMP1H might be only a two or three car class at LM next year if the rumors of Porsche pulling out in favor of focusing on their GTE program and waiting to see what happens with the 2020 regs are accurate )or get replaced with another Volkswagen Group program).

And the other way, if DPIs can easily run to LMP1 privateer speeds on LMP1 spec open tires and at relatively little cost, let them into LMP1 privateer and let LMP1 privateer cars run in IMSA. I'm pretty sure that GM is probably spending LMP1 privateer level money on the Cadillac DPI program anyways, and they reportedly want to sell more customer cars beyond the three entries that are currently running them.

The only guys who might lose out (or, possibly, rather have a conflict of interest) is Dallara. They're developing a new LMP1 with SMP Racing that may or may not have much to do with their LMP2/DPI cars (granted, LMP2/DPI and LMP1 share chassis regs under both ACO and IMSA technical regulations). So there's a risk that Dallara might have two very different cars in the same class, so one or the other could get axed under the same scenario unless SMP wants to run the car as their own and only have Dallara build it.

At this stage, it's not like GM have the same deal that Audi Sport had with Dallara from 2006-2013 where Dallara couldn't really build their own LMP cars because of the Audi Sport deal prior to Audi Sport having YCom handle their LMP1 chassis construction (ironically, YCom already were building bodywork and other stuff Dallara wasn't dating back to the first days of the R10 program).
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Old 14 Jul 2017, 23:00 (Ref:3751299)   #4971
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Isn't it possible to have an EoT (equivalence of technology) to allow privateer LMP1 efforts? I suppose they'd risk losing Toyota and Porsche because they'd be spending much more money to create a car with essentially the same speed.
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Old 15 Jul 2017, 05:24 (Ref:3751338)   #4972
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It's been tricky for the last few years because the rate of development of the factory cars has been insane and the rate of development for the privateer cars has been pitiful. By the end of last year the R-One was fast enough to be in with the 2014 factory cars, but the factory cars were a generation newer and 4 seconds per lap faster. With Audi gone and the regulation changes to slow things down maybe it will be easier.
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Old 15 Jul 2017, 08:00 (Ref:3751359)   #4973
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It would be interesting to get some info about how fast a factory non hybrid would be. Could it be competitive?
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Old 15 Jul 2017, 08:09 (Ref:3751364)   #4974
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It would be interesting to get some info about how fast a factory non hybrid would be. Could it be competitive?
Ideal lap (fastest sectors combined all week long) for the ByKolles at Le Mans was a 3:23.290. So I can't see a reason why a well-developed private LMP1 car can't do a 3:20.
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Old 15 Jul 2017, 12:53 (Ref:3751408)   #4975
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Ideal lap (fastest sectors combined all week long) for the ByKolles at Le Mans was a 3:23.290. So I can't see a reason why a well-developed private LMP1 car can't do a 3:20.
Which is still miles off the pace. Unless they're matching the hybrids then they're nowhere. Remember Toyota in 2015? It wouldn't have made any difference had they not been in the race at all.
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Old 15 Jul 2017, 14:13 (Ref:3751428)   #4976
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Which is still miles off the pace.
Of what pace?
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Old 15 Jul 2017, 18:47 (Ref:3751500)   #4977
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Which is still miles off the pace. Unless they're matching the hybrids then they're nowhere. Remember Toyota in 2015? It wouldn't have made any difference had they not been in the race at all.
It would have been enough to win the race this year if it was coming from a car that was actually reliable or consistent.
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Old 16 Jul 2017, 05:47 (Ref:3751562)   #4978
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Of what pace?
LMP1 hybrids.
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Old 16 Jul 2017, 05:50 (Ref:3751563)   #4979
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That kolles chassis is pretty old too. They're doing what they can with it and their budget. But I think that Nissan has given it life. Hopefully next year they will have a good chassis so the Nissan engine can do its thing. It will be interesting to see if the Perrinn and Ginetta make it to the grid and how they get on.
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Old 16 Jul 2017, 05:51 (Ref:3751564)   #4980
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It would have been enough to win the race this year if it was coming from a car that was actually reliable or consistent.
True. But what happened this year doesn't happen very often. Is it worth it to stick around and be an also ran for years just to get one opportunity?
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