IMSA DPi Discussion

[Maelochs]

I have to agree with Chernaudi.

I have to assume that Joest being Joest, and Mazda being a manufacturer, the 2018 RT-24 will be whatever it needs to be to compete—however much it needs to change.

The base Riley? Nobody cares. If they did they’d buy a Ligier or Oreca.

[broadrun96]

Except there are certain areas of the LMP2 chassis that IMSA allows the DPi modifications. If the area outside of the DPi zone is what they'll have to modify then it's different homologation. But hey, why look at the rules?

[chernaudi]

IMSA probably in reality don't care about what the ACO wants no more than the ACO cares about what IMSA wants. At this stage it's all just lip service. All the stuff the ACO wants won't work for IMSA and all the stuff IMSA wants won't work for the ACO.

Both organizations' management probably hate each others' guts for all we know anyways. And they both probably are willing to bend their own rules to suit their own means and ends. Which, BTW, are often different and at odds with each other at this stage.

The ACO won't willingly accept DPI and GT3 because of the old "it wasn't invented here" line. Same with IMSA probably for privateer spec LMP1s or making DPIs like them.

[Scorchess]

The ACO won't accept DPi or GT3 because it doesn't need them.

[chernaudi]

They might have to accept DPI to get factory teams back in if they don't accept the 2020 regs. Costs is one reason why factory teams are backing out, namely the returns that they're getting for the money spent.

[Maelochs]

I expect FIA and IMSA will work together when they see some profit in it.

If FIA needs P1-L cars, it might cut a deal whereby DPis "without direct factory support" are allowed into the class. If it cannot entice enough GTE-A teams it might consider GT3 ... iff it seems like a profitable maneuver.

IMSA? IMSA will do what it feels it needs to make a profit too---FIA has clearly shown that it will sink any series except its own flagship. ALMS had a lot of troubles, but part of its troubles were trying to comport to FIA's ridiculous and oft-changing rules.

I think IMSA will bend its own rules whenever it wants, and Certainly where DPi is involved. It might handle GTLM with care, but it will do what it needs to to make DPi work.

The whole reason DPi exists is that IMSA realized it wouldn't make any money running ELMS rules. IMSA told FIA to do something else, and IMSA went and did what it needed to for its own benefit.

So, yeah, I have no reason to think IMSA won't make whatever deals, alterations, and adjustments are needed to get the Joest cars to the grid in a competitive form. Ultimately, DPi rules are Entirely IMSA's .... a DPi is whatever IMSA says it is. And I am pretty sure it wants Penske and Joest in the series in a bad, bad way.

Those two teams bring a huge amount of credibility to the series and a pretty good charge of enthusiasm to the fan base.

Also, I am sure IMSA knows that another two seasons of The Cadillac Show, and it will have another Rolex Series on its hands ... without the bottomless NASCAR bank account to prop it up.

IMSA needs a couple strong and stable DPi teams. EMS is trying, but really, what success have they had since their inception? ( I mean, since Highcroft went away and Ed Brown backed Scott Sharp back in what 2012 or 2013?)

I'd say IMSA will do what it needs to keep Penske and Joest feeling that they are playing a fair game--even if IMSA has to rig the game a little bit to get things started.

[Scorchess]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

If FIA needs P1-L cars, it might cut a deal whereby DPis "without direct factory support" are allowed into the class.

They are already allowed. Whether they are fast enough remains the question, but there's nothing stopping for example ESM to enter their car in the LMP1 class. They only have to change some electronics and maybe some aerodynamic changes for Le Mans.

Problem is, they would get smoked by the customer LMP1 cars and probably by the best LMP2 cars as well. That doesn't look good now does it?

[chernaudi]

Actually, DPIs can in theory run in LMP1 privateer, provided that the ACO doesn't object to them being factory supported (and their performance is up to snuff). It goes back to what the ACO considers a factory supported team and how much support they're willing to tolerate.

Both the ACO and IMSA considered Champion to be a private team from 2001-2006 when they took over the ALMS program from Joest for the R10 (to allow Joest to concentrate on LM and later the LMS, as Joest didn't have a NA base since the end of the '03 ALMS season). But they got a huge amount of factory support from Audi Sport.

Also, Highcroft, deFerran, Fernandez. and AGR/Andretti Autosport for HPD and Dyson for Porsche were considered privateer teams by IMSA and the ACO officially. Penske was considered the factory team for Porsche.

Unless the ACO changed how they judge such things, a team like AXR would probably be considered a semi-factory customer team, like Champion was with the R8.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I expect FIA and IMSA will work together when they see some profit in it.

If FIA needs P1-L cars, it might cut a deal whereby DPis "without direct factory support" are allowed into the class. If it cannot entice enough GTE-A teams it might consider GT3 ... iff it seems like a profitable maneuver.

IMSA? IMSA will do what it feels it needs to make a profit too---FIA has clearly shown that it will sink any series except its own flagship. ALMS had a lot of troubles, but part of its troubles were trying to comport to FIA's ridiculous and oft-changing rules.

I think IMSA will bend its own rules whenever it wants, and Certainly where DPi is involved. It might handle GTLM with care, but it will do what it needs to to make DPi work.

The whole reason DPi exists is that IMSA realized it wouldn't make any money running ELMS rules. IMSA told FIA to do something else, and IMSA went and did what it needed to for its own benefit.

So, yeah, I have no reason to think IMSA won't make whatever deals, alterations, and adjustments are needed to get the Joest cars to the grid in a competitive form. Ultimately, DPi rules are Entirely IMSA's .... a DPi is whatever IMSA says it is. And I am pretty sure it wants Penske and Joest in the series in a bad, bad way.

Those two teams bring a huge amount of credibility to the series and a pretty good charge of enthusiasm to the fan base.

Also, I am sure IMSA knows that another two seasons of The Cadillac Show, and it will have another Rolex Series on its hands ... without the bottomless NASCAR bank account to prop it up.

IMSA needs a couple strong and stable DPi teams. EMS is trying, but really, what success have they had since their inception? ( I mean, since Highcroft went away and Ed Brown backed Scott Sharp back in what 2012 or 2013?)

I'd say IMSA will do what it needs to keep Penske and Joest feeling that they are playing a fair game--even if IMSA has to rig the game a little bit to get things started.

ESM won Daytona and Sebring last year overall.

[AoB Special Stage]

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

ESM won Daytona and Sebring last year overall.

They won PLM once in GTE with their 458s too .... So, they won a few races in several years ... this year they are almost up to pace in practice and qualifying, with the worst of the Cadillacs ... Van Overbeek and Derani are good drivers (Derani is well beyond "good")and Scott Sharp is not terrible.

The team has eight wins since 2010. My math is week ... is that 1.125 wins per season? Somehow my mind is not blown.

So ... you would call them DPi powerhouses? Among the dominant teams in IMSA?

Dude, Mike Shank won the Rolex one year. Is MSR a "powerful force in IMSA racing"?

On the other Action Express has three consecutive Titles ... not three race wins in five years. WTR has five or six consecutive wins. Audi won ALMS pretty much ... always. Nine titles in nine years.

Penske Porsche took three consecutive P2 titles ... in three years.

ESM averaged seventh in championship points in its six full-time seasons in ALMS and IMSA.

Seems to me ... take away Pipo Derani and they would have Zero wins in the past three seasons.

I like the team ... but I don't see them threatening even race wins except when Derani drives for them ... and so far, the rest of the crew has managed to offset his contributions.

The team has a best of second and third this season. However, their average best finish is 13th, and average over two cars, 22nd.

I am sorry but I just do not consider them to be a top-tier team, based on their results.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

They won PLM once in GTE with their 458s too .... So, they won a few races in several years ... this year they are almost up to pace in practice and qualifying, with the worst of the Cadillacs ... Van Overbeek and Derani are good drivers (Derani is well beyond "good")and Scott Sharp is not terrible.

The team has eight wins since 2010. My math is week ... is that 1.125 wins per season? Somehow my mind is not blown.

So ... you would call them DPi powerhouses? Among the dominant teams in IMSA?

Dude, Mike Shank won the Rolex one year. Is MSR a "powerful force in IMSA racing"?

On the other Action Express has three consecutive Titles ... not three race wins in five years. WTR has five or six consecutive wins. Audi won ALMS pretty much ... always. Nine titles in nine years.

Penske Porsche took three consecutive P2 titles ... in three years.

ESM averaged seventh in championship points in its six full-time seasons in ALMS and IMSA.

Seems to me ... take away Pipo Derani and they would have Zero wins in the past three seasons.

I like the team ... but I don't see them threatening even race wins except when Derani drives for them ... and so far, the rest of the crew has managed to offset his contributions.

The team has a best of second and third this season. However, their average best finish is 13th, and average over two cars, 22nd.

I am sorry but I just do not consider them to be a top-tier team, based on their results.

So your logic is because ESM does not have TONS of cash to throw at the championship, one mind you if Penske hadn't won would be considered a HUGE failure, they are terrible?? Is there no middle ground for you and they have to either be the worst or best? I'm really getting tired of the superiority complex of some one here who think they could run a series and seem to have NO clue about what has caused the problems before and think teams pulling out was the only flaw. The reasons they pulled out are the problems. But hey keep ignoring the Penske problem, ie unlimited cash for one team, and we'll merrily whistle into another ALMS fade out.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

So your logic is because ESM does not have TONS of cash to throw at the championship, one mind you if Penske hadn't won would be considered a HUGE failure, they are terrible?? Is there no middle ground for you and they have to either be the worst or best? I'm really getting tired of the superiority complex of some one here who think they could run a series and seem to have NO clue about what has caused the problems before and think teams pulling out was the only flaw. The reasons they pulled out are the problems. But hey keep ignoring the Penske problem, ie unlimited cash for one team, and we'll merrily whistle into another ALMS fade out.

Yeah, I am sorry about your personal problems ... do me a favor, don't take them out on me, alright?

I never said I knew how to run anything. That is Your personal problem with someone else.

What I said is that Penske and Joest each have a history of victories, and would bring legitimacy to the series. Apparently the people who run the series seem to think so ... what do they know? Surely You could run the series better?

As far as ESM ... all I did was post results. I never said they were the worst. Again, that is wholly Your problem which You need to solve.

I just said that they have not proven able to compete with theh top teams in any series. And guess what? The results, dating back eight years, bear me out.

I never mentioned how much money ESM has ... again, that is Your issue, which you need to resolve. As far as I can see the team has plenty of money ... which is how they can campaign so many cars in so many series.

As for teams pulling out ... well, I am not series administrator but if enough teams pull out to me that would be a problem.

However here we are dealing with two powerful teams Joining the series. Please try to keep in mind what you are discussing with others if you jump into others' conversations.

If you want to go off on a rant abut teams pulling out, start a thread.

Here we are discussing IMSA in 2018, when two powerful, prestigious teams with long histories of success in motorsports will be Joining the series.

From your post it seems as if you think having Penske and Joest join will be a bad thing. I don't see where you support that idea.

Also, I don't see where the "unlimited cash" bit comes in. Do you know the budgets for Mustang Sampling, Whelen, WTR, and the 2018 budgets for Joest and Penske? Do you know ESM's budget?

Which teams do you think have or will have "unlimited cash"?

Seems to me you used my post to launch in an entirely unrelated and pretty much logically unsupported rant on some subject which only you perceive to exist.

Sorry ... but my point in the post to which you responded is simply that no team which has ten wins in eight seasons can be considered a top contender. No team which has never even approached a single championship victory in eight seasons can be considered a top contender.

If they had even hit top five a few seasons running ... except in the case where there are only five teams in the class ....

I stand by my proposition, and I have backed it up with number: ESM has never been one of the top teams in ALMS or IMSA.

All the rest of that stuff, since it is all your own imagination and has nothing to do with what I said, maybe you had best argue it out with yourself.

Let us know who wins.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Yeah, I am sorry about your personal problems ... do me a favor, don't take them out on me, alright?

I never said I knew how to run anything. That is Your personal problem with someone else.

What I said is that Penske and Joest each have a history of victories, and would bring legitimacy to the series. Apparently the people who run the series seem to think so ... what do they know? Surely You could run the series better?

As far as ESM ... all I did was post results. I never said they were the worst. Again, that is wholly your problem which You need to solve.

I just said that they have not proven able to compete with theh top teams in any series. And guess what? The results, dating back eight years, bear me out.

I never mentioned how much money ESM has ... again, that is Your issue, which you need to resolve. As far as I can see the team has plenty of money ... which is how they can campaign so many cars in so many series.

As for teams pulling out ... well, I am not series administrator but if enough teams pull out to me that would be a problem.

However here we are dealing with two powerful teams Joining the series. Please try to keep in mind what you are discussing with others if you jump into others' conversations.

If you want to go off on a rant abut teams pulling out, start a thread.

Here we are discussing IMSA in 2018, when two powerful, prestigious teams with long histories of success in motorsports will be Joining the series.

From your post it seems as if you think having Penske and Joest join will be a bad thing. I don't see where you support that idea.

Also, I don't see where the "unlimited cash" bit comes in. Do you know the budgets for Mustang Sampling, Whelen, WTR, and the 2018 budgets for Joest and Penske? Do you know ESM's budget?

Which teams do you think have or will have "unlimited cash"?

Seems to me you used my post to launch in an entirely unrelated and pretty much logically unsupported rant on some subject which only you perceive to exist.

Sorry ... but my point in the post to which you responded is simply that no team which has ten wins in eight seasons can be considered a top contender. No team which has even approached a single championship victory in eight seasons can be considered a top contender.

If they had even hit top five a few seasons running ... except in the case where there are only five teams in the class ....

I stand by my proposition, and I have backed it up with number: ESM has never been one of the top teams in ALMS or IMSA.

All the rest of that stuff, since it is all your own imagination and has nothing to do with what I said, maybe you had best argue it out with yourself.

Let us know who wins.

Wow, so if you repeat yourself enough are you finally factually correct??

In the time you claim, so ignore teams who weren't in the series since guess they COULDN'T have won it, who was the dominant team? Who won everything in front of them? Wait, that would be no one.

I have no personal problem with you, I have a problem with those who gleefully dismiss everything and revel in the 'this racing sucks' 'it used to be better, '"Team X" would crush everyone in this series.' If you hate the action so much why do you waste your time watching it? Surely there is something else you could enjoy instead of monday morning quarterbacking something you seem to hate with a passion.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I have no personal problem with you, I have a problem with those who gleefully dismiss everything and revel in the 'this racing sucks' 'it used to be better, '"Team X" would crush everyone in this series.' .

Please show me, with quoted citations, where I said any of those things or anything even vaguely related to those things.

My posts are right on the page. Quote the parts which you feel say those things, please.

Originally Posted by broadrun96

If you hate the action so much why do you waste your time watching it? Surely there is something else you could enjoy instead of monday morning quarterbacking something you seem to hate with a passion.

I don't know where you get the idea that I hate anything so much. You are the one here with the anger and the hatred.

I don't have a problem with you, you don't have a problem with me ... but dude, you have Some kind of problem.


Again, please support the things you claim I am saying with actual citations from my posts.

Do that, and we can discuss miscommunication, potentially on my part as well as yours. Otherwise, you are just using me as a target to vent about your own personal problems, which is frankly just rude.

[Matt]

ESM is a good team with bad luck. You don't win the 36 hours of Florida if you're a bad team.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

ESM won Daytona and Sebring last year overall.

I think that pipo derani in a ESM ligier won 2016 daytona and sebring

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by canaglia

I think that pipo derani in a ESM ligier won 2016 daytona and sebring

Ha! Well, the greatest drivers won't win without a great car these days and yada, yada, yada.

ESM had always been as strong as their weakest links, which at times, were Sharp and Brown. They've also had some utter disasters for whatever reason.

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

Ha! Well, the greatest drivers won't win without a great car these days and yada, yada, yada.

ESM had always been as strong as their weakest links, which at times, were Sharp and Brown. They've also had some utter disasters for whatever reason.

Back when they were in GTLM in a Ferrari 458. Risi usually beat them. I do miss ESM though. I still feel like they are a GT team first and foremost who are just running prototypes right now. Feel that way about the Whelen car too.

[hondafan37]

Jacques Nicolet (Onroak Automotive) says there are talks with other manufacturers to make a DPI.
The product is attractive and attracts manufacturers. The market is huge for them. The global cocktail makes it work. The balance between cars is done acutely and seriously. Depending on LMP2 chassis allows manufacturers to make high-level competition at a reasonable cost. The category is a promising future.

About to ESM Nissan, the cars were made in a very short time.
This is a year of adjustment. Luckily IMSA leaves all type of components open all year round. The approach is very clever as it allows you to adjust everything.

http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/ent...-p3-js-p4-dpi/

[Maelochs]

Well, I have hoped since the team was announced that ESM would operate on the Highcroft level.

I have liked the team as a sort of poor relation of Highcroft (a team I held in exceedingly high regard) and I try not to expect too much ... but they are not short of funds, they are just short of results.

I admire them for stepping up to P2 when the new series formed (which sort of forced IMSA to include P2s with DPs.)

Still, I wish they'd do better. That's all.

[Jonerz]

http://nasportscar.com/what-is-visit...-racing-up-to/

Very curious. Are they shaking down a new Multimatic? If I may add to the conjecture in the article, I wonder if they're switching to Oreca-Gibson?

Chris

[broadrun96]

Well I'm thinking first thing they'd be doing is beating the bushes for a new sponsor with the Visit Flatlandia sponsorship gone. Doubt there's much they could do besides find a John Pew to buy a new chassis for them, otherwise it's hope they can get some help from the Joest guys improving the Mazda and parts/improvements moving on to them as well.

[Damian Baldi]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

http://nasportscar.com/what-is-visit...-racing-up-to/

Very curious. Are they shaking down a new Multimatic? If I may add to the conjecture in the article, I wonder if they're switching to Oreca-Gibson?

Chris

Nobody can blame them to switch to another car, the Riley is plain uncompetitive. I would like to see them moving to a Dallara instead a Cadillac, just to create more diversity,

About the Riley, if Joest can't make improvements on the Mazda that could be transfered to the Riley, that chassis will be dead.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Damian Baldi

Nobody can blame them to switch to another car, the Riley is plain uncompetitive. I would like to see them moving to a Dallara instead a Cadillac, just to create more diversity,

About the Riley, if Joest can't make improvements on the Mazda that could be transfered to the Riley, that chassis will be dead.

These are expected results when you entrust for carbon tub based prototypes supplier a company that barely has experience in that field....

multimatic too in last years basically kept on producing parts projected by someone else (lola).