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Old 14 Aug 2017, 20:39 (Ref:3759417)   #651
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Yes, I did realize it when I did a search for 'man spitting out drink gif' on Google, but thank you for mentioning it, Adam43.
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Old 14 Aug 2017, 22:25 (Ref:3759431)   #652
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ASCII Man, you do realise you've just posted an animated gif. I thought I'd mention it just in case.
Ban him!! 😂
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Old 15 Aug 2017, 03:15 (Ref:3759448)   #653
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Agreed. But one of McLaren-Honda's problems, as well as the lack of pace and unreliability, has been the gap - well, yawning chasm, really - between their rhetoric and ambition on the one hand and their performance on the other. I keep having to remind myself that there is no immutable law that McLaren will recover and fight at the front, and that BRM, Lotus, Brabham and Tyrrell all won championships before declining and finally going into death spirals.
Ha! Well I do like the idea that future success for anyone is not inevitable. Generally speaking nobody is safe from a future "death spiral" (some are more safe than others). "If" McLaren was to "fail", I suspect it would look different than some of those examples above. I can't remember how the F1 team and commercial enterprise are structured. Likely the commercial side can survive without the F1 team. The F1 team might become something else. But regardless, a very good point to make.

What I think could be more likely for the F1 side of the McLaren house is a Williams style long slow slide into general mediocrity. Williams has had relatively erratic performance over the past 10+ years (with occasional highlights, but not enough to show a positive trend). And I say this is an absolute fan of Williams who would love to see them back on top.

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Old 21 Aug 2017, 14:03 (Ref:3760748)   #654
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The only way Williams and McLaren will get back on top is with primary A-grade engine supplies, running a Renault or Merc engine they will only ever get B-grade motors......hence its worth toughing it out with Honda, but I admit, its taken far too long........most of McLarens problems are self inflicted as they pushed honda to package the engine too tight (size zero) in the first place when Honda re-joined F1 3 years ago.

If the Honda deal goes south for McLaren I think they are long over-due making their own engines, the simplified 2021 motors may allow this. McLaren use Ricardo for their road car powertrain R&D and employ a lot of very experienced powertrain engineers for the road-car engine business......they just need to actually realize they can do an F1 engine and make the jump with assistance from Ricardo and Zytek.

Or like I said before, get their old mate Mario Illien (Ilmor) on the case and just pay his bills
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Old 21 Aug 2017, 14:52 (Ref:3760754)   #655
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Someone needs to get GM, PSA or Ford interested in Formula 1.
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Old 21 Aug 2017, 15:14 (Ref:3760757)   #656
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Someone needs to get GM, PSA or Ford interested in Formula 1.
that will never happen, the real automotive money these days is in china, trust me I work in the powertrain R&D industry for a living, someone like Geely, PATAK, Chery, Great-Wall and so on.......they have money coming out of their ears, but nobody has ever heard of them, so they could do with the F1 exposure........hence buddying up with McLaren for an F1 engine done by Ilmor is easy for all parties involved.
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Old 21 Aug 2017, 15:31 (Ref:3760758)   #657
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The only way Williams and McLaren will get back on top is with primary A-grade engine supplies, running a Renault or Merc engine they will only ever get B-grade motors......
was Williams getting b grade versions of the Renault PUs in 2012 & 2013 though? RB won those years and Williams were also pretty fairly trounced by a severely underfunded Lotus- Renault team as well.

and now with Merc power they still tended to get out classed by Force India (and i cant imagine that FI have a more favourable engine deal/upgrade schedule then Williams do).

anyways it's not that i disagree, but rather i think the bigger issue is budget size followed by how they spend their money.

even with access to the best engine, Williams, certainly, would struggle financially to maintain the development pace necessary to be competitive at the sharp end over an entire season.

plus these are large corporations now and no doubt subject to sprawling costs stemming from building up and supporting other departments/projects...something Force India by contrast doesnt have to deal with.

sad to say, but Williams and Mclaren are not the lean and mean racing enterprises they once were.

sort of an unrelated point, but i think FI is one of the most efficient teams in terms of points per dollar spent...i think if that team can get access to a new owner/full manu backing i could see them jumping to the sharp end more quickly then Williams or Mclaren getting back up there.
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Old 21 Aug 2017, 16:34 (Ref:3760764)   #658
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was Williams getting b grade versions of the Renault PUs in 2012 & 2013 though? RB won those years and Williams were also pretty fairly trounced by a severely underfunded Lotus- Renault team as well.

and now with Merc power they still tended to get out classed by Force India (and i cant imagine that FI have a more favourable engine deal/upgrade schedule then Williams do).

anyways it's not that i disagree, but rather i think the bigger issue is budget size followed by how they spend their money.

even with access to the best engine, Williams, certainly, would struggle financially to maintain the development pace necessary to be competitive at the sharp end over an entire season.

plus these are large corporations now and no doubt subject to sprawling costs stemming from building up and supporting other departments/projects...something Force India by contrast doesnt have to deal with.

sad to say, but Williams and Mclaren are not the lean and mean racing enterprises they once were.

sort of an unrelated point, but i think FI is one of the most efficient teams in terms of points per dollar spent...i think if that team can get access to a new owner/full manu backing i could see them jumping to the sharp end more quickly then Williams or Mclaren getting back up there.
Williams throw a lot of bits at the car but they have bit of a history of not always working, something that Paddy Lowe is addressing. They also have consistently produced cars that are not effective on some circuits, I know that Williams are focused on their lack of budget compared to Ferrari and Red Bull, but I doubt that FI have a bigger budget than Williams, and probably quite a lot less, they seem leaner and keener and with a better driver line up. Perhaps Williams is held back by keeping a big team mentality on small team budgets? And I speak as a long time Williams fan and follower!
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Old 22 Aug 2017, 00:49 (Ref:3760837)   #659
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Williams throw a lot of bits at the car but they have bit of a history of not always working, something that Paddy Lowe is addressing. They also have consistently produced cars that are not effective on some circuits, I know that Williams are focused on their lack of budget compared to Ferrari and Red Bull, but I doubt that FI have a bigger budget than Williams, and probably quite a lot less, they seem leaner and keener and with a better driver line up. Perhaps Williams is held back by keeping a big team mentality on small team budgets? And I speak as a long time Williams fan and follower!
I think that Paddy Lowe is a great get for Williams, now the test will be to see if they listen to him and give him the authority to carry out the changes he wants. Paddy is absolutely the X factor that Williams need to be competitive again, will they take the opportunity or fire him?

I agree FI are something special, their consistent results are very very impressive. Year in year out they punch well above their weight.

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Old 22 Aug 2017, 09:40 (Ref:3760906)   #660
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I agree, Williams did well in getting Paddy
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Old 22 Aug 2017, 15:12 (Ref:3760964)   #661
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Perhaps Williams is held back by keeping a big team mentality on small team budgets? And I speak as a long time Williams fan and follower!
which is a problem, that i would think, gets magnified by poaching/enticing talent from other top/big budget teams. Paddy is great but can he get back to success with a team that has a much smaller budget?

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I agree FI are something special, their consistent results are very very impressive. Year in year out they punch well above their weight.
i would like to know more about Andrew Green's technical team (i think thats their tech directors name) and why the likes of Williams and Mclaren are not more actively trying to poach him or people from departments that have proven to work well under a smaller budget....maybe not so much Mclaren at this point but certainly Williams could benefit from this imo.

or they could get lucky and just discover the next Newey!
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Old 22 Aug 2017, 16:55 (Ref:3760980)   #662
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I have to say I think Williams main problem this year is drivers.
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Old 22 Aug 2017, 23:49 (Ref:3761041)   #663
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I have to say I think Williams main problem this year is drivers.
2016 9th (Bottas) and 11th (Massa) in drivers championship.

2017 11th (Massa) and 12th (Bottas) in drivers championship.
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Old 23 Aug 2017, 03:26 (Ref:3761067)   #664
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2016 9th (Bottas) and 11th (Massa) in drivers championship.

2017 11th (Massa) and 12th (Bottas) in drivers championship.
indeed!

I think the actual values are...

2016 8th (Bottas) and 11th (Massa) in drivers championship.

2017 11th (Massa), 12th (Stroll) and 3rd (Bottas) in drivers championship (incomplete season)

They don't have a strong paring this year, but Bottas is doing well enough this year that IMHO, Williams have larger issues than a lack of driving talent.

Back on topic...

Lots of speculation and press hype for the spec 4 power unit. Cross fingers and hope Honda has made real progress on both power and reliability.

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Old 23 Aug 2017, 10:09 (Ref:3761135)   #665
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Well knock me over with a feather ;-).......Ilmor have been helping Honda on the F1 engine for a short while now......Finally Honda realised they needed help from an external consulting company who actually knew what they are doing.....flippin great news......I would love to see McLaren now overtake the Renaults.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/131354/honda-ilmor-boost-creates-mclaren-dilemma

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Old 23 Aug 2017, 12:01 (Ref:3761166)   #666
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Well knock me over with a feather ;-).......Ilmor have been helping Honda on the F1 engine for a short while now......Finally Honda realised they needed help from an external consulting company who actually knew what they are doing.....flippin great news......I would love to see McLaren now overtake the Renaults.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...claren-dilemma

.
Fixed link, not sure why yours is just text and not a hyperlink ...

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...claren-dilemma

It's been clear for awhile that you are not a Honda fan. But if you have been paying any attention to reports directly from Honda (mostly direct quotes and not speculative reporting via the Japanese press), they have been using outside resources on the 2017 engine from the start. I think the only thing that might be new in that article is speculation/rumors that they "are" working with Ilmor vs. that they "might" or "should" be working with them. Even then... it might not even be true. Ilmor might not be involved.

My amateur opinion is that Honda's problems are less about who they are consulting with, than their testing and project management philosophies. For example... I read that they go straight from engine dyno to chassis integration at the track. They don't have a chassis dyno such as the AVL setup that others have. I have no idea if they plan to change that, or how they plan to work around that deficiency if they don't start using one.

But, there is no doubt this has all been discussed extensively inside McLaren and Honda. Honda claims they are changing their ways. Let's see what plays out in the second half of the season. Personally I think it's unlikely McLaren will move to Renault. I suspect Red Bull (via Toro Rosso) hold all the cards. If they don't want TR to switch to Honda, then that holds up both a path for Honda to have at least one team and the Renault engine supply moving from TR to McLaren (Renault has their own problems and doesn't want to increase the number of teams they supply). If anything, assuming the new spec goes well, I can see Honda at both McLaren and TR. This being RB putting a toe in the waters to test Honda plus play Honda against Renault.

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Old 23 Aug 2017, 14:22 (Ref:3761191)   #667
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Its not a case of me not being a Honda fan, when Honda returned 3 years ago I was actually pretty excited, I am more frustrated that both Honda and McLaren both got themselves into such a mucking fuddle, especially when the year before Hondas arrival Mclaren ran the first Mercedes turbo engine, so had a good idea of what to expect and how to achieve it, like with the split turbo and so on......to pursue the axial flow turbine was utterly foolish on both sides of the partnership........then look what happened over the last 3 years.......honestly I am desperate to see them get on the podium, I would like to see Honda remain with McLaren, as I honestly believe the Renault engine will not be a long term solution.

Like I said in another post, for McLaren and Williams to return to the front and dominate the sport again, they both need A-grade engines.......the sooner Williams jump to Honda the better......then Honda will have 2 quality teams with which to dominate F1 again like in the 80's.
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Old 24 Aug 2017, 07:26 (Ref:3761321)   #668
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Well, well.. that article also states that Mercedes has had some input on the Honda PU!

Wait, when did this all happen!??
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Old 24 Aug 2017, 08:10 (Ref:3761329)   #669
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Well, well.. that article also states that Mercedes has had some input on the Honda PU!

Wait, when did this all happen!??
It doesn't actually say Mercedes had input on the PU - although that might be what is implied.
What it actually says is that Mercedes had input behind the scenes at Honda.
That could mean many things - help in staff structures, historical testing data of Merc PU, sharing of transmission data....
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Old 24 Aug 2017, 08:57 (Ref:3761333)   #670
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[QUOTEWell, well.. that article also states that Mercedes has had some input on the Honda PU!][/QUOTE]

I think they put a spanner in the works...
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Old 24 Aug 2017, 11:43 (Ref:3761354)   #671
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Surely with Merc help they'd do a lot better than this now or are they deliberately sabotaging it
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Old 24 Aug 2017, 12:50 (Ref:3761368)   #672
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They have been rumours circulating for a number of weeks now that Mercedes have been "assisting" Honda with their PUs, but both sides, and McLaren, vehemently deny that there is any truth to the matter.

Whatever the "truth" is, I doubt that it will be acknowledged for a very long time, if ever.
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Old 24 Aug 2017, 14:10 (Ref:3761377)   #673
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They have been rumours circulating for a number of weeks now that Mercedes have been "assisting" Honda with their PUs, but both sides, and McLaren, vehemently deny that there is any truth to the matter.

Whatever the "truth" is, I doubt that it will be acknowledged for a very long time, if ever.
I expect that is correct. That given any involvement by a large manufacture is primarily a marketing exercise of your own engineering prowess, it is a negative to expose the dirty truths of things like rebadging the designs of others, outsourcing design and construction to a third party as well as help from third party consultants or other manufactures.

Maybe at some point in the future, someone on the inside will step forward once their career is over and safe from professional repercussions and provide details of who they are, why they should be trusted and what really happened. At the moment it is nothing more than a large amount of unsubstantiated rumors and speculation or which some percentage is likely true. We just don't know which percent.

And of course there will always be those who are, or purport to be insiders who live behind aliases who will say "I can't say who I am, but trust me". But the problem is... you have "insiders" who give conflicting statements. It's hard to even decide which "insider" to trust. Posts here and on other forums I visit (as well as media speculation) reminds me of the lyrics from a Dire Straits song... "Two men say they're Jesus one of them must be wrong".

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Old 24 Aug 2017, 14:56 (Ref:3761379)   #674
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Maybe at some point in the future, someone on the inside will step forward once their career is over and safe from professional repercussions and provide details of who they are, why they should be trusted and what really happened.
Sorry for quoting myself... When I typed the above, I was thinking about something like this...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1937747336

That book is by ex-Ilmor people and tells the story of the pushrod engine built by Ilmor Engineering for the 1994 Indy 500 that was eventually badged as a Mercedes (this was back before Mercedes bought that company which eventually became the group that built the current F1 engine for Mercedes).

I am not sure this current Honda saga is book worthy (I would buy a copy), but I do expect at some point, someone will step out of the shadows and tell the story.

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Old 24 Aug 2017, 18:18 (Ref:3761408)   #675
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
Sorry for quoting myself... When I typed the above, I was thinking about something like this...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1937747336

That book is by ex-Ilmor people and tells the story of the pushrod engine built by Ilmor Engineering for the 1994 Indy 500 that was eventually badged as a Mercedes (this was back before Mercedes bought that company which eventually became the group that built the current F1 engine for Mercedes).

I am not sure this current Honda saga is book worthy (I would buy a copy), but I do expect at some point, someone will step out of the shadows and tell the story.

Richard
That would be Mercedes-Benz High Performance Engines Ltd. In 2005, Mario Illien in partnership with Roger Penske bought the Special Projects division from Mercedes-Benz High Performance Engines Ltd., because it was involved in developing the Honda IndyCar engine from 2003-2006 with HPD, Honda Performance Development. The new company, which is totally independent of Mercedes, is again called Ilmor Engineering Ltd.
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